Driverless Cars

[3930dave]

speaking of parking bakes, anyone remember those traction control systems? Any makers still use them? I drive an ancient 99 F350 DR. So no new tech stuff. I do like having the extra rubber on the road however..

Applying Parking brakes sometimes helps transfer power side to side in differentials..... just had to remember to take it off once unstuck :laughing: I do remember that era of traction control.

Some modern brake systems will apply individual brakes selectively, in terms of stability or traction control.

Rgds, D.

 

[Liquidsilver]

Since there must be lots of redundant systems ready to stop self-driving the car quickly... or even just the more common auto braking car...

am I the ONLY one surprised that some clever hacker hasn't developed a simple device to make the Mercedes slam on its brakes, marooning the driver in place to be robbed, or to force a rear end of the vehicle from a vehicle behind? A friend of mine was playing with his Mazda, amused that it wouldn't run into the bushes at the end of his driveway. It seems to me that either a sonic or electronic ghost bush could stop it as well. (??)

Even with the cellphone-distracted morons we share the road with... I still think I have more trust in the human. That could be misplaced trust, eh?

 

[vvanders]

Since there must be lots of redundant systems ready to stop self-driving the car quickly... or even just the more common auto braking car...

am I the ONLY one surprised that some clever hacker hasn't developed a simple device to make the Mercedes slam on its brakes, marooning the driver in place to be robbed, or to force a rear end of the vehicle from a vehicle behind? A friend of mine was playing with his Mazda, amused that it wouldn't run into the bushes at the end of his driveway. It seems to me that either a sonic or electronic ghost bush could stop it as well. (??)

Even with the cellphone-distracted morons we share the road with... I still think I have more trust in the human. That could be misplaced trust, eh?

What you're talking about is basically a slightly advanced radar jammer which is super-illegal. FCC/LE finds out your running one of those and they'll come down on you like a ton of bricks with a life-changing fine.

Also with TACC/AP enabled throttle still overrides the radar.

 

[3930dave]

Since there must be lots of redundant systems ready to stop self-driving the car quickly... or even just the more common auto braking car...

am I the ONLY one surprised that some clever hacker hasn't developed a simple device to make the Mercedes slam on its brakes, marooning the driver in place to be robbed, or to force a rear end of the vehicle from a vehicle behind? A friend of mine was playing with his Mazda, amused that it wouldn't run into the bushes at the end of his driveway. It seems to me that either a sonic or electronic ghost bush could stop it as well. (??)

Even with the cellphone-distracted morons we share the road with... I still think I have more trust in the human. That could be misplaced trust, eh?

Easy enough to do, for people with the right skills..... MB was the first one to put it into a production vehicle, but plenty of other manufacturers use CAN on board today.

The Jeep Hackers Are Back to Prove Car Hacking Can Get Much Worse | WIRED

Even with some attention being paid to vehicle "digital" securty, with more complexity and enhanced connectivity comes increased risks - at well below the Driverless Car level.

Rgds, D.

 

[vvanders]

Easy enough to do, for people with the right skills..... MB was the first one to put it into a production vehicle, but plenty of other manufacturers use CAN on board today.

The Jeep Hackers Are Back to Prove Car Hacking Can Get Much Worse | WIRED

Even with some attention being paid to vehicle "digital" securty, with more complexity and enhanced connectivity comes increased risks - at well below the Driverless Car level.

Rgds, D.

The way FCA built + handled that was a complete joke. At a bare minimum you need separate networks, ideally with a different protocol mechanism and a whitelist of anything that goes between them. Additionally not having any OTA mechanism but supporting complex software is a recipe for disaster.

If you want to know who's serious about software security look for who offers bug bounties and pays out if vulnerabilities are found. People will find those holes and more than likely get paid for them, ideally it's the manufacturer paying and not a blackhat group that's using them for less than legal ends.

 

[Soundguy]

I do remember the vehicle hacking issues.

 

[Liquidsilver]

What you're talking about is basically a slightly advanced radar jammer which is super-illegal. FCC/LE finds out your running one of those and they'll come down on you like a ton of bricks with a life-changing fine.

Also with TACC/AP enabled throttle still overrides the radar.

I understand, but today's carjackers don't seem to deterred by authorities or fines. I have a nephew that builds lasers in his basement that would be absolutely illegal to use. (With my FAA background I just tell him to never let it point near an aircraft. That's a federal felony and they don't play around with jail time.) The fact that it's illegal doesn't slow him down a bit. But I'm not talking about car hackers, I'm talking simple ways of confusing the existing outboard sensors of the car... or even simple situations that could confound the vehicle and cause a fatal outcome.

So, my friend's Mazda won't hit the bush, but if a tornado were approaching and he needs to run over the bush to escape, will the car eventually let him? Or if my wife is about to be pulled from her car by an angry mob of demonstrators blocking her escape, will the car let her move forward push them out of the way? Just wondering.

I'm just surprised it hasn't been an issue, that's all.

 

[3930dave]

I understand, but today's carjackers don't seem to deterred by authorities or fines. I have a nephew that builds lasers in his basement that would be absolutely illegal to use. (With my FAA background I just tell him to never let it point near an aircraft. That's a federal felony and they don't play around with jail time.) The fact that it's illegal doesn't slow him down a bit. But I'm not talking about car hackers, I'm talking simple ways of confusing the existing outboard sensors of the car... or even simple situations that could confound the vehicle and cause a fatal outcome.

So, my friend's Mazda won't hit the bush, but if a tornado were approaching and he needs to run over the bush to escape, will the car eventually let him? Or if my wife is about to be pulled from her car by an angry mob of demonstrators blocking her escape, will the car let her move forward push them out of the way? Just wondering.

I'm just surprised it hasn't been an issue, that's all.

Years ago, I remember the A320 debuting at the Paris airshow. IIRC, there was a group of VIPs onboard. The pilot made a landing approach and went to execute a planned go-around. The computer decided, "No, based on control inputs, we will land now", with the plane ending up on what was left on its wheels, some serious distance into the forest at the end of the runway.

And, that was a commercial airliner. Programming algorithms and thresholds....... not easy to get right, for every scenario, every time.

For business reasons, I was reading some Ford material about their vehicle's Lane Keeping feature. Setting dependent, it will try and nudge you back into your lane. Over many years and miles, I've had to make a few emergency lane changes - it would take quite a bit a bit of personal empty-road testing before I'd leave that feature fully switched On - the last thing I need when split-seconds count is to be wrestling with a counter-steering wheel...

Rgds, D.

 

[bcp]

Years ago, I remember the A320 debuting at the Paris airshow. IIRC, there was a group of VIPs onboard. The pilot made a landing approach and went to execute a planned go-around. The computer decided, "No, based on control inputs, we will land now", with the plane ending up on what was left on its wheels, some serious distance into the forest at the end of the runway.

Bruce

 

[rd_macgregor]

On top of known and potential threats to drivers and bystanders, I just ran across yet another issue that I hadn't thought of before:
Autonomous Vehicles Might Drive Cities to Financial Ruin | WIRED