Driveway Rolling

[fenneran]

I just had our driveway re-done with "milled material" (at least that's what they call it around here...the ground-up asphalt from road projects). The drive is about 1/2 mile long with a steep hill in the middle. The last time we did it, it lasted about five years, but I had to constantly scrape the material back up the hill after a rain. So this time, I contracted to have the drive "rolled" after it was applied. They came today with a vibrating roller machine (like a steam-roller, but with one roller that vibrates). I had to pay a three-hour minumum charge ($300) for the job, which included drive and setup time, which was fine.

He rolled up one side of the drive and down the other and was gone. Total rolling time: 20 minutes. Did I take it in the shorts, or is one pass all I should have expected? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[beenthere]

I would have expected him to roll for the entire time you paid him for, less the transportation time. If his 'drive and setup' time didn't amount to much, say total of 1 hour, then you should have had the roller rolling for the other 2 hours, whether it did any good or not. If the 'drive and setup time' took the entire 2 hours 40 minutes, then you had an expensive roll of the drive and of your pocketbook. IMO.

 

[Toiyabe]

I agree that unless I told the operator otherwise I would expect him to roll for the full length of time I paid for.

Whether extra passes would have helped your driveway is difficult to determine. 1/2 mile each way in 20 minutes is 3 mph - ususally figure 2.5-3 mph for a vibratory roller so at least he didn't cheat you on that.

I would have wanted an overlap between passes of more than one-half of the roller width (slightly more so the second and third pass don't line up exactly). I would also have wanted two complete coverages, although I don't know that the second coverage would accomplish anything. When mobilization/demobilization of the equipment is the big cost it's worthwhile to be conservative, IMHO. I also would have used a pnuematic tired roller if the costs were reasonably equivalent - tends to get a tighter surface.

You'll probably be fine so long as you're happy with the smoothness of the surface. I don't expect that the RAP (recycled asphalt pavement) will erode even if it is under-compacted - but you can judge that better than any of us by looking and kicking at it.

 

[Boomerang1]

I charged a 1 hour minimum of $50.00 and loaded a customers pickup truck with 2 bucket fulls of dirt, which took 10 minutes, did the customer get a ripped off? If he did, he sure had a big smile on his face when he paid me and thanked me for all labor I saved him. If you agree on a minimum charge, it doesn't matter how long it takes.

 

[Toiyabe]

Well, it's a common problem at all levels of the construction buisness - poorly defined scope of work.

In the case of loading a pickup, it's clear that the scope is to load the pickup. You load the pickup, collect $50 from the client and everyone is happy.

When it comes to rolling a driveway, the scope is less clear. For a highway job, the client would specify a required density for the layer, and it would be up to the contractor to determine what equipment to use and how to use it. Without that control, the client has to make those determinations, and most homeowners don't know how.

In this case, client probably assumed that there is some standard procedure for rolling a driveway, and the contractor apparently didn't bother to clearly explain what he thought the scope was. If the contractor explained that the client was going to get one trip up and one trip down the driveway for 3 hours of billed work, the client probably would have asked for more passes.

I guess it's an object lesson to always make sure that both sides understand clearly what the job entails. That's a responsibility for both the client and contractor, but especially the contractor if he values his professional reputation.

 

[beenthere]

If you want to use that analogy, I would say if you stopped when you had one bucket of dirt in the guy's truck, and said 'good day' I'm done, that it would be a better analogy. Clearly, as pointed out, not the same situation.
I think the drive should have been rolled for the length of time that used up the $300. Otherwise, it borders on theft IMO and I would be complaining. Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better.

Just like the compacters (rollers) that roll the fresh asphalt. They don't stop with one pass, as the job ain't done yet. They go back and forth and 'iron' out the asphalt until it is smooth.

This was unfortunate and a clear gouging of the customer. Sad, the way I look at it.

 

[RobertN]

Toiyabe has a good point. What was the scope of work agreed to in the contract, or was there a contract? Did the roller operater meet the scope of work described? That is what we do not know...

If I have a 3 hour minimum on my tractor work, and agree to mow your front pasture but it only takes an hour to mow, then what? Certianly I would not continue to drive around your pasture for two more hours?

I take my tractor out to jobs, and do have a minimum(3 hour). I try to make an accurate time estimate, and ensure both the customer and I understand what is expected on the job. This is especially the case when the job will take less time than my minimum charge.

It appears this scope of work was not clear on this job, either to the customer, the contractor, or both.

 

[Boomerang1]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If you want to use that analogy, I would say if you stopped when you had one bucket of dirt in the guy's truck, and said 'good day' I'm done, that it would be a better analogy. Clearly, as pointed out, not the same situation.
I think the drive should have been rolled for the length of time that used up the $300. Otherwise, it borders on theft IMO and I would be complaining. Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better.

Just like the compacters (rollers) that roll the fresh asphalt. They don't stop with one pass, as the job ain't done yet. They go back and forth and 'iron' out the asphalt until it is smooth.

This was unfortunate and a clear gouging of the customer. Sad, the way I look at it. )</font> Who was the expert on the job? If the contractor thought one pass down the drive was enough for a proper job who's can argue? Maybe the home owner should have rented a machine for $300 - $400 and spent his own labor and time to get a job that might have looked as good. When I was a professional automotive refinisher, I was paid commission for the job. If I was paid 26hrs. to paint a car and only took 12hrs., did the customer get ripped off? Maybe the customer should have been watching over me and telling me to put put on 4 coats of paint instead of 3. If the home owner would have been away from home when the job was done and not known how many passes were made, would he have complained? Most of my jobs are over bid on purpose because I really don't need the work. I tell the customer before the job how many hrs. I think it will take. I also tell them if I go over the hrs. there is no extra charge. A job bid at 6 hrs. will usually only take me 4 hrs. I don't have people complaining that I didn't spend enough time their home.

 

[Boomerang1]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Each pass of the roller will likely compact the drive more, and make it better. . )</font> You said each pass would likely compact the drive more. Asphalt is put down in "lifts". Usually 2'' at a time and rolled between lifts. If there was only one lift and the contractor had brought a machine that was over sized for the job one pass may have been plenty. Maybe the contractor looked to see how many lifts were put down before he started. When the contractor bid the job, did he do it over the phone, and assumed (never assume) the drive would be laid in two lifts which would require extra passes. I think the home owner should ask the contractor that laid down the drive and find out how many lifts were put down and then call some other companies and ask how many passes would be needed. Then, if the drive was not not rolled enough times, he should call and have the drive rolled again if it was not too late because the asphalt is too hard already. Maybe ask for some money back.

 

[meledward23]

I have to take the side of the position that you did not get ripped off becuase he only spent twenty minutes at your site.

BUT,

You may have been ripped off if you were paying a PROFESSIONAL to roll your drive properly and do a proper and good job. But what the determination of that is, ? Seriously the auto example is a good one. Just like anything I give an estimate to do a job if I get it done in less I made extra money. Sometimes I may give the client a little back to bolster my rep. But always the client relies on the fact that I am a professional and that I do what is right. Rarely is there another professional involved soley for oversight. How else can one be certain if what you paid for is what you recieved?

This is what makes contract work such a pain. This is why Architects and Engineers get paid Contract Administration fees. Yes your job was to small for all that. But these are the questions and problems customers and contractors have everyday from both sides.

 

[fenneran]

Thanks for all of the replies guys. I am a know-nothing when it comes to driveway specifications, so Boomerang's (and other's) questions were good ones. Here is some more information which may help you understand the situation better. I hired my neighbor as the contractor. He is a professional in this field as one line of his company are the guys who strip and re-pave the roads. he, in turn, subbed out the vibrating compactor work to another excavating firm (I don't think he owns the machine, but uses them instead). My main concern was the hill on the driveway because of the trouble I have had in the past. He told me the price would be $300 no matter how long they stayed, but could certainly do the whole driveway in that time. So I agreed.

What I don't know is if my expectations (which were not spelled out in a contract for those who asked) were reasonable. Remember, I'm just a homeowner and have never done this before. I thought that the drive would essentially be flat, hard and packed when he was done. For the most part, it is. But there are parts where the material is still a little loose; enough for the F150 to make a mark in it. In my mind, this should not be, and that is where I feel I might have been slighted. it would seem that, maybe, if he ran over it a few more time (within the three-hours that I paid for), it would have compacted it a bit more. But according to him (the compactor driver), going over it again does nothing. On the other hand, I am perfectly aware that my expectations may be way out of line and a few loose spots may be exactly what I should expect.

 

[Toiyabe]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If there was only one lift and the contractor had brought a machine that was over sized for the job one pass may have been plenty.)</font>

Hot asphalt is usually rolled in three coverages (sometimes only two) - Breakdown, intermediate and finish. On each of these coverages, the passes overlap significantly - about 50%. The reason why it's rolled many times rather than once with a large machine is because of the uniformity of compaction. Over-compacted in some areas and under-compacted in others does not average out to the same thing as properly compacted everywhere.

Yes, that's not a great comparison because hot asphalt concrete will compact a lot more than cold millings. What bothers me is the overlaps. Depending on the width of the driveway and the width of the roller, the client didn't get much of an overlap.

A steel-wheeled roller will often bridge some areas (i.e. the roller only contacts the surface on its edges and not at all in the center), giving an uneven compaction effort. This is especially true for a material that doesn't compact much. Overlapping the passes significantly makes it more likely that the entire surface is compacted. As the client said that he still has some loose areas, I rather suspect that the roller bridged over those areas and did not compact them.

Anyway, the contractor should have known about this if it's what he does on a regular basis. On his normal jobs there's probably an inspector making sure he does his job. He ought to have cared enough about his neighbor to do a good job without having an inspector present. Remember, the prime contractor is responsible for the work performed by his subs.

 

[fenneran]

This was milled asphalt, not hot. (ground up roadway, applied with a dump truck)

 

[Toiyabe]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( This was milled asphalt, not hot. )</font>

I understand that, thought it was clear in my reply. The comparison to hot asphalt was in reply to a comment from Boomerang1.

My point is that you generally need more than just one pass to ensure that you compact the entire surface evenly, rather than just the high points. As I said, this actually is more important for cold millings then hot asphalt because it dosen't compact as much and it's not laid down as smooth which makes it more likely that you get bridging. Using a pnuematic tire roller rather than a steel wheel roller would have also helped prevent bridging.

 

[meledward23]

Look, if your neighbor is basically a "GC" speak to him about what you got for waht you paid. Tell him you arent looking to make trouble, and you dont have a problem with the work if it was done right. But you have some concerns about whether one pass each direction was sufficient.

He may agree with you, or he may disagree. But he is there, onsite, and should be able to render a professional opinion. In addition if you did get hosed, and the other guy does sub work for him, he probably can get the guy to comeback and fix it. Otherwise, next year when the driveway washes out, you can join the "Neighbors what to do with them" Posts!!!!