Dumb moves

   / Dumb moves #11  
>>Like the national ID card, I think it's easier to say it's a dumb idea

IMO, in this case the best idea would be to do nothing...as you correctly pointed out, the airlines are not the only ones suffering...lots of companies are. Let the freemarket figure out the winners and losers. Government shouldn't be propping up failing businesses.
 
   / Dumb moves #12  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

>>I agree with most, that the bailout is dubious at best.

What I can't figure out is why it had so much support in congress? Other than politicians own self-ish interest (as usual) since they are big travelers...

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ejb on 09/27/01 10:19 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / Dumb moves #13  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Sore spot for me. As a very frequent flier for the past 10 years (100+ flights per year) I have learned that airlines are as ruthless and cutthroat as they can get away with. They spend millions on PR and gov't lobbying to offset the effects, which are often unethical, sometimes immoral and occasionally illegal.

I believe the big airlines all showed just how unpatriotic they are - Especially the ones that announced early like Continental, American and United. They've been sitting around all year trying to figure out how to downsize within the constraints of their contracts with the unions. The Sept. 11 tragedy provided them that opportunity and they pounced on it, even before they could feel the effects, then they use the layoffs to manipulate congress into passing a bailout package. Unbelievable. I put them in the same boat as the traitors in the gas station business that attempted to gouge customers within hours of the attacks.

Boeing is probably the worst of all. A negative impact on the airline industry would take at least weeks if not months to impact orders for new planes, yet Boeing announced 30k layoffs around Sept. 18 and we still don't know what the long term effects will be on their business.

When you travel, if you have the opportunity to use Southwest Airlines, use them. It is the only airline that has earned its ability to survive hard times.
 
   / Dumb moves #14  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

My wife has been a fight attendant for 18 years with Delta, so this hits pretty close to home for us. She should be fine and is back doing a once a week Europe trip. Delta is reducing their work force by 13,000 out of their 86,000 employees.

My understanding of the “bailout” is that it was intended to help cover the loses for the days the FAA shut down the air space to all planes. It was not to “bailout” mismanagement problems many of the airlines already had. In Delta’s case, the company was in a very stable financial state prior to the tragedy, but with planes that were full, now at 1/3 capacity the company is now operating at a negative cash flow, to the tune of $30 mil per day, something has to change. Naturally a company can not last very long this way, so reduction in routes, service and employees are the only option.

The airlines have seen some ugly union contract negotiations in the past few years and these are the companies that are laying people off with out severance packages. Management feels the unions have put them in bad financial shape and the contracts say no severance if layoffs are due to acts of war. The President says we are at war so the companies are saying, read the contract. Bad situation for all.

Delta is a non-union shop (except pilots) and their approach has been to offer voluntary leaves of 1,3 and 5 years with insurance on the 1 yr leave, some employee benefits and return guarantees. Voluntary termination with a severance package based on years of service. An early retirement package for those over 52 years of age, with bonus years of service and health insurance. After employees have had a chance to act on these options, the remainder of reduction will be done with layoffs and severance packages.

Why keep the airlines flying? Well, if you think about it, much of our business infrastructure is dependent on the airlines for moving people and materials both domestically and internationally. If you reduce the number of airlines, which I believe will happen, we create a situation where two or three big carriers own the market. The only problem with that is they then get to set the prices and that means the cost of everything goes up. You can already see this if you live near a smaller city with only one major carrier serving the area. It can cost you more to take that one-hour flight than it does to travel to Europe. The other reason for the government to keep the airlines in the air is that they need them to move troops, if needed. Years ago, the military pretty much mothballed it transport fleet for troop movement. Most airlines fly planes that are designated as flag ships. These planes are under contract, with the government, to be pulled from service, reconfigured and used for troop movement. The system was used during Dessert Storm.

I know I am starting to sound like a lobbyist for the airline industry. It is more my intention to share what the airline crowd is saying about the situation. Of course our life style hinges on the end results so I can’t say we have an unbiased opinion.

I believe most all airline employees will tell you that flying today is safer than they have ever seen it. Security is tighter than it has ever been, flight crews are already being retrained for the unprecedented acts that happened and the planes are being checked by armed security personal before leaving the gates for the first time. Are there any guarantees that nothing will happen if you get on a plane? Of course not, but statistically it is safer than getting in your car and driving.

One last thought, if you are canceling the family vacation or your business trip because you have to get on an airplane, haven’t the terrorist won and you have lost some of your freedoms?

IMHO,

MarkV
 
   / Dumb moves
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Harv - the bailout is very pertinent to the thread. It fans the flames of the situation - I just forgot to add it to my list late last night ...
 
   / Dumb moves #16  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Mark, Thanks for a very informative post. It's easy to bash the airlines and their employees when you have no direct interest in either one. I agree that we all have a stake in the future of the airline industry whether we are frequent fliers or not. (I am)

I know that future travel will take a little longer on the ground and country boys like me will have to remember to leave their pocketknife at home but in the long run it will be worth it. Our economy was looking bad enough without this latest setback - I am for saving every job we can.

Let's all remember the families of the ones lost in this tragedy in our thoughts and prayers.
 
   / Dumb moves #17  
I think the bailout relates to the fact that the FAA grounded the airlines, thus making it somewhat justifiable, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I do know that if the airlines go broke, many other feeder businesses will follow.

Alan L., TX
 
   / Dumb moves #18  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Tbone,

<font color=blue>country boys like me will have to remember to leave their pocketknife at home</font color=blue>

I know what you mean, I had one taken away the other day. I knew better, even talked about it the night before, but have had one in my pocket for the last 40+ years. Old dog, new tricks./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif My wife had to go through her bags and remove cork screws, nail files, pocket knife, leatherman tool, nail clipper and cudical scissors. All the galley knives (except plastic butter) have been removed from the planes and I don't know if we are destine to drink twist top wine forever or not./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Guess it is a small price to pay.

MarkV
 
   / Dumb moves #19  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Mark,

<font color=blue>Boeing is probably the worst of all. A negative impact on the airline industry would take at least weeks if not months to impact orders for new planes, </font color=blue>

As of Sept. 18th 138 airplanes scheduled for delivery by end of year 2001 were cancelled or placed on hold. Some of those airplanes were Southwest.
Al
 
   / Dumb moves #20  
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

I believe most of those Boeing cancellations were prior to the 11th. Remember the airlines have had a rough year.

One further point - the big airlines stated they were losing $100 million a day while they were grounded. I am not sure if that is per airline or all the airlines combined. The more conservative approach is to assume the latter. Multiplying the $100m per day by 365 days in a year equals a $36b industry. Sounds about right.

If so, they were grounded for lets say five days (really closer to four). Cost of $500m, right? So how did they manuever (manipulate) for $5b in outright cash and $15b in guaranteed loans?

I have taken four flights since the 11th. The first one was 60% full, the other three at around 80%. The workers at the airports I've been talking to (remote parking, rental car firms, etc.) say the business is coming back.
 

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