Electrical advice for building

[JeffinNE]

A 30x40x10 Morton building is going up in a couple months and I'm needing some advice on what I'll be needing for electrical. Hoping to have the power ran from the box inside the house--maybe 60amp power needed? I'll have a 30x36 concrete pad in front of the building for use as a basketball court for my boys and looking for options for lighting the court. I don't see a heavy need for lots of power--I have no welding skills, just maybe some small power tools. I'm thinking just basic lights for inside the building and a few outlets? Would you need an exterior outlet for any reason or just run an extension cord from an inside outlet? The building will have a concrete floor and used for storage of all those things we accumulate on an acreage that eventually overflow the house garage.

First--when in the process of having the building put up is it best to add the wiring, etc.

Second--what advice for number of outlets, type of lighting for the bb court, and lighting inside the building?

 

[Pete6114]

Just because you dont have a welder today, dosent mean you wont have one tomorrow.
I ran 100 amp service from my house (200amp) to my shop when i build it. At that time i "knew" it's more then enough. No more room in my panel anymore. Now, i wish i had more but will live with what i have.

I got 14 8-foot fluorescent fixtures in my 30x50 shop
15x 15 amp recepticals plus 2 on ceiling for openers
2x 20 amp
1x 50 amp
i ran telephone line
gas line for my heater
water line
i pre wired for alarm system before i closed the walls up
it's all easy to do during construction.

I wired it up after the roof was on and i had the exterior wrap on.
exterior outlet.....definitely...at least 1
Outside light for your shop.....depends on your needs and wants.
http://www.budgetlighting.com/outdoor-yard-lighting-barn-light.html

So...at least 100 amp for sure.! Dont second guess yourself.
Once you have a big shop like this, you'll find all kinds of things to do in it. Lot's of room for tools that require electricity.....I since have build another shed. 24x18. Just never big enough! In fact, if i was to do it again, i would build bigger and higher. I have 10 foot ceiling now but would build 14 high, so i can have a car hoist. Hindsight certainly is 20 20.
my 2cents

 

[Doloe]

Unless you're on a real shoestring budget I'd suggest going with a 200 amp panel.
I sure do wish the PO of my place had done so.
Who knows what you'll be using the building for 5 years from now..

 

[beeforty]

At the least run 2" conduit and then if you every want to upgrade your panel you can use your old wire to pull the new heavier wire thru and you won't have to dig up your yard again:thumbsup:

 

[AJE]

At the least run 2" conduit and then if you every want to upgrade your panel you can use your old wire to pull the new heavier wire thru and you won't have to dig up your yard again:thumbsup:

I've been told to run an empty one also just in case there is something you want to run later.

 

[Gizmo2]

Yep...100 amp service. I am not sure if it is the same as a house but there may very well be a code as to the number of outlets required per foot of wall space, I'd go up from there.

What is the service at the house?
Do you have electric heat in the house?

 

[grsthegreat]

if you already have a 200 amp service to the existing house, i would suggest running a 100 amp circuit to the shop (you cant run a 200 amp circuit from a 200 amp main...not allowed). I know you say you don't need it now, but awfully hard to do later. The trench is the most expensive part of the entire thing.

Depending on your soil types, you can run direct burial wire (without any conduit underground). this saves a little $$$$, but personally id never do that. A 10' stick of 2" pipe is only $4 or so.

If you definitely don't want anything other then a few lights and a few outlets, you'll only need 30 amps out there. You could load the thing with lights and outlets on 30 amps, and unless you want a welder, air compressor...youll never exceed the 30 amps.

You can put outlets anywheres you want, but i usually place them 48" up from ground, and place one every 10 feet for convenience. You can easily group[ 4-5 on a single 20 amp circuit since your not planning on making a shop out there. They HAVE to be GFCI protected.

There are lots of lighting options for the exterior. My current favorite involves multi-tube florescent lights. Very energy efficient and put out lots of light.

If you have the trench run...add phone and catv lines...internet also . or just run extra conduits for future. Im sure glad i did on my shops. Just a note: the phone,catv,internet CANNOT be run in same conduit as power.

 

[Arsavoie]

Have your power company set a new drop and you supply the meter base then you can put up a another 200amp panel or less if you want to In Your shop it will be a lot easer and safer in the long run
How many amps is your panel now that feeds your house
I am a electrician so can help you I do this every day How far is the shop from your house

 

[Gizmo2]

Have your power company set a new drop and you supply the meter base then you can put up a another 200amp panel or less if you want to In Your shop it will be a lot easer and safer in the long run
How many amps is your panel now that feeds your house
I am a electrician so can help you I do this every day How far is the shop from your house

The only issue with this is the extra service fee every month. You could end up paying (in my case) 3 times more for the basic service fee then power used.

 

[JeffinNE]

Have your power company set a new drop and you supply the meter base then you can put up a another 200amp panel or less if you want to In Your shop it will be a lot easer and safer in the long run
How many amps is your panel now that feeds your house
I am a electrician so can help you I do this every day How far is the shop from your house

House panel is 200amp. Using propane heat.

It's about 170 feet from the house to the building.

My current meter is at the opposite end of the acreage and I would have to go around the back of septic field which would be around an 800 foot run. Isn't that the only way power company could wire it?

 

[Pete6114]

I would ( did ) hook up to your panel in the house.
I ran my direct burial wire through solid big-O to the shop. Phone in separate conduit and alarm wire in separate conduit as well.

 

[sldva00]

I plan on installing a 100 amp sub panel in barn. Running THHN/THWN #2 wire (4) in schedule 80 conduit from main panel buried 18". The two live feeds connecting to sub panel with breaker, neutral connecting to neutral only (not bonding neutral to ground at sub panel), and ground to ground plus connecting to separate grounding rods at barn with #6 wire.

 

[grsthegreat]

I plan on installing a 100 amp sub panel in barn. Running THHN/THWN #2 wire (4) in schedule 80 conduit from main panel buried 18". The two live feeds connecting to sub panel with breaker, neutral connecting to neutral only (not bonding neutral to ground at sub panel), and ground to ground plus connecting to separate grounding rods at barn with #6 wire.

there ya go pilgrim.

Im an electrical contractor......and this is how id do it. the underground part of the conduit only needs to be schedule 40, but sch 80 would be stronger. of coursem the size of the wire can even be downsized to #4 copper if around 100' in length or shorter. #2 from 100-200 foot, over 200 feet you will have to get a larger diameter wire.

 

[hr3]

I plan on installing a 100 amp sub panel in barn. Running THHN/THWN #2 wire (4) in schedule 80 conduit from main panel buried 18". The two live feeds connecting to sub panel with breaker, neutral connecting to neutral only (not bonding neutral to ground at sub panel), and ground to ground plus connecting to separate grounding rods at barn with #6 wire.

I think another look at article 250 in the 2011 code should be made here,,as for the ground rods at the barn ??

 

[tommu56]

Have your power company set a new drop and you supply the meter base then you can put up a another 200amp panel

That is bad suggestion for my area the monthly meter fees are ridiculous.
A friend was going to do the separate meter thing.
He took my suggestion and went from 100A on his house to 200 then a 100A to the garage all in conduit with 2 extra 1" pipes and a 1" poly line for water.

The water line can be drained in his basement to keep it from freezing.

 

[ace10]

Have your power company set a new drop and you supply the meter base then you can put up a another 200amp panel or less if you want to In Your shop it will be a lot easer and safer in the long run
How many amps is your panel now that feeds your house
I am a electrician so can help you I do this every day How far is the shop from your house

I agree. The trenching work might be a lot cheaper if the utility co does it, rather than a private company. For me it was over $10/foot difference for the run. And now I have another 400 amp panel to play with. And the utility co even supplied the meter and base. My only responsibility was hanging it and the work inside the building.

Check with them on the base billing fee. Dominion's is only $7 per month, or thereabouts.

 

[lostcause]

That is bad suggestion for my area the monthly meter fees are ridiculous.
A friend was going to do the separate meter thing.
He took my suggestion and went from 100A on his house to 200 then a 100A to the garage all in conduit with 2 extra 1" pipes and a 1" poly line for water.

The water line can be drained in his basement to keep it from freezing.

i'd first check with your local utility company on the cost of a second meter, especially since you have a long run between buildings. the utility company here offers some sort of garage hookup that puts a separate meter on the garage, but it's not like a separate account. my understanding is that it is just one account and they total up the kw-hrs used for the bill. not saying that it's going to be cheaper, but it's only a phone call to find out.

also, you said it was 170' between buildings. is that the true distance between them? you will need to know the true distance between the house panel and the garage panel to figure out the wire size and ultimate cost. my garage is only about 25' in a straight line from the house, but i had to run about 175' of wire because of the distance i needed to travel from the panel to the garage in order to avoid tearing up the driveway. make sure to remember to add the distance for the ups and downs where you go to the boxes.

 

[sldva00]

... the size of the wire can even be downsized to #4 copper if around 100' in length or shorter. #2 from 100-200 foot, over 200 feet you will have to get a larger diameter wire.

I measured 90' for my wire run (trench). I decided on #2 for vertical distance the wire has to travel (up and down walls). Better safe than sorry, I don't want to experience any power drop.

I've done alot of reading on this, your comments are reassuring, thanks.

 

[sldva00]

I think another look at article 250 in the 2011 code should be made here,,as for the ground rods at the barn ??

Yeah, I was basing the grounding rods on 2008 code. I hadn't realized 2011 was already out. I know it's every 3 years, just hadn't seen anywhere that it was out. I'm not an electrician. Thanks for the headsup, will definitely look into Article 250 of 2011 code.

 

[grsthegreat]

I measured 90' for my wire run (trench). I decided on #2 for vertical distance the wire has to travel (up and down walls). Better safe than sorry, I don't want to experience any power drop.

I've done alot of reading on this, your comments are reassuring, thanks.

for 90 feet, you wont have to worry about any voltage drop. It is necessary to add at least 1 ground rod at the barn (2 are better) and your right, you need to separate the ground and the neutral bus bars on the shop panel. It looks like you've done your research.

good job. The service is the hard part. the shop wiring will be easy compared to the service. Have fun:thumbsup:

As for the 2011 ground rod requirements, even im not sure about that. Idaho HAS NOT adopted the 2011 code yet, and i haven't taken my classes on it yet. we wont use it until July 2012. so i have over a year to worry about what stupid worthless changes they have issued. You cannot ever under ground a system, and there not expensive, so go with 2 rods PLACES AT LEAST 6-8 FEET APART. I personally have added separate ground rods for my plasma CNC machine and computers just to be safe. I even grounded my snadblast cabinet cause i was getting static shocks at times.