Electrical charging pto issue JD 145 automatic

[jrv8984]

Few weeks ago the mower deck wouldn't engage, but I was having a hard time starting the mower and was having to jump it. Got a new battery, and noticed that the solenoid nut holding on the starter cable was missing. Fixed that, but the wife was mowing the other day and the pto just stopped again and wouldn't start. Shut mower off and had to jump it. Got the mower running disconnected the battery and it kept running, so the alternator should be doing its job. So I'm guessing that the pto is drawing down the battery. Anybody have any ideas what might be going on? Thanks

 

[atsah]

Sounds like the PTO switch is shorted.

 

[RandyT]

Unless that engine has a fuel solenoid on the bottom of the carb, no electric power is required to run the engine. I suspect that the charging system isn't working. It can be checked with a volt meter across the battery terminals as see what the voltage is. Less than 13 volts would say it isn't working. Also even with the fuel solenoid it only needs 9 volts to operate whereas the electric clutch needs closer to 12 so it will shut down before the voltage drops enough to kill the fuel solenoid causing the engine to die.

 

[atsah]

Looks like he removed the battery cable while running and it stays running which indicates the charging system is working.

 

[jrv8984]

I'm not a small engine guy. But if the charging system isn't working there would be no electricity for the spark plugs when the batteries disconnected. Or am I missing something that's different with small engines?

 

[Dave M7040]

I'm not a small engine guy. But if the charging system isn't working there would be no electricity for the spark plugs when the batteries disconnected. Or am I missing something that's different with small engines?

Engine is likely running on a magneto for spark so battery is only for starting, engaging electrical pto clutch and lights. You really do not have an alternator but a dynamo. It uses permanent magnets for the magnetic field rather than coils of wire as an alternator has.

A $10 multimeter will tell you a lot about what is going on.

Dave M7040

 

[RandyT]

I'm not a small engine guy. But if the charging system isn't working there would be no electricity for the spark plugs when the batteries disconnected. Or am I missing something that's different with small engines?

Except in a few engines like some of the kawasaki's and a few Kohlers the ignition system is self powered by a magnet on the outside of the flywheel passing an magneto that generates spark. the charging system consist of magnets on the underside of the flywheel, running next to a stator that may or may not go to a regulator/rectifier, and then to the battery to recharge it, and run other things like the pto clutch. Posting the model number information from the engine will help to narrow down the troubleshooting of the charging system.

 

[jrv8984]

Model 441777
Type 0116 E1
Code 051128YG

 

[tomplum]

Briggs Portal shows that you have the dual circuit alternator, so you would follow the test procedures for that style. But likely your PTO is drawing too many AMPS. The clutches tend to stay running until about 10 Volts or less and as others have said eventually the fuel solenoid will close and there you are, dead in the lawn. So, you want to know your new battery is up for the task. It should really be 250 CCA or more and if so charge and have it load tested. You can then determine if your charge system is working and how many AMPS your clutch is drawing. As Randy said, if you alternator is charging , you should have 13-14 VDC across your battery terminals at wide open throttle. Engage the clutch and if it pulls if down considerably that would be another hint...

 

[RandyT]

Dual circuit charging isn't normally used with the electric clutch mowers. I suspect he had the 10-16 amp charging system with the square regulator/rectifier mounted on the what would be the left side cylinder if sitting on the seat. Two wires with a yellow connector going into the regulator with a single wire with a barrel type connector with battery voltage.

 

[tomplum]

That's what I figured too. I thought I'd check it out on JDPC and they offered the same 3 options as the Briggs distributor IPL. That's why I looked at the power portal. It could be wrong. The OP may not even need to get that far though if it is charging, unless the 3 wire regulator isn't shutting down like they sometimes do.

 

[RandyT]

That's what I figured too. I thought I'd check it out on JDPC and they offered the same 3 options as the Briggs distributor IPL. That's why I looked at the power portal. It could be wrong. The OP may not even need to get that far though if it is charging, unless the 3 wire regulator isn't shutting down like they sometimes do.

Briggs never gets exact on their charging systems. They will show all the system parts used on that series, and you have to figure out which system you have. Just like a few years ago when they had the opposed twins and some of the carbs had a 3 bolt fuel pump and others had the 4. The IPL would show both systems and you had to physically look at which one it was.

Also the normal amp draw for an electric clutch is 2-4 amps.

 

[tomplum]

I too would think it would have the 15 AMP charging system due to the clutch. Briggs can be messy to find charge parts and harnesses for sure. Though sometimes the OEM of the chassis is good enough to list the proper charging parts in their IPL. Just not in this case. Sears used to be pretty good at that in referencing their IPL BTW. On this engine, the build sheet on the power portal shows otherwise. It seems likely that the PTO is on it's way out and is way over budget on AMPS anyways. It would be interesting to know for sure. That's why we make the big bucks...
Alternator Specifications
Alternator 592831
Type Dual Circuit
Testing RPM 3600
AC Volts 14vac
DC Amps 3adc, 5adc thru reg

 

[RandyT]

Tomplum Have you every seen a 3-5 charging system on a briggs with a regulator. The IPL doesn't show a regulator for that system. I could believe the 5-9 system with the little box regulator or the 10-16 system with regulator, but not the 3-5. The service manual show testing for a 3 amp DC unreulated/5 amp AC unregulated for lighting with a single two pole white plug. the 5-9 system with a single wire going to a regulator, and the 10-16 system with two wires ending with a single two pole plug going to the regulator.

I haven't checked but is JD using a separate regulator on the 5 amp AC side to regulate/rectify

 

[jrv8984]

For some reason I couldn't get on the site yesterday. I have the yellow plug with 2 wire in and 2 out and a red barrel plug.

 

[jrv8984]

12.18 v running full throttle, drops down to 11.xx v when I engage the pto

 

[RandyT]

For some reason I couldn't get on the site yesterday. I have the yellow plug with 2 wire in and 2 out and a red barrel plug.

So let me make sure you I have this correct. there is two black wires coming out from under the flywheel that connects to a yellow connector with two yellow wires going into the regulator, and then a single red lead with a red barrel connector correct. If so then connect a meter set for DC volts to the mower side of the barrel connector and check for battery voltage. the key may need to be turned on for this to work. If that works then disconnect the yellow connector and start the engine while it is running at full throttle, set your meter to read AC volts and connect each lead of the meter to each of the two black wires from the stator. this test should read at least 28 or more Volts AC. If both test good then most likely the regulator/rectifier is bad, if no battery voltage to regulagtor than need to diagnose why, and if the stator is reading less than 28 volts then need to remove the flywheel to replace the stator.

 

[jrv8984]

OK, so I have battery voltage at the barrel plug, and 29-30v from the 2 black wires at the plug. On the regulator is a Briggs symbol and the #'s 394890. 4305. Hopefully that is the part #. Thanks for the help

 

[LittleBill21]

12.18 v running full throttle, drops down to 11.xx v when I engage the pto

12.18 at full throttle and no pto? yea your not charging.

 

[RandyT]

OK, so I have battery voltage at the barrel plug, and 29-30v from the 2 black wires at the plug. On the regulator is a Briggs symbol and the #'s 394890. 4305. Hopefully that is the part #. Thanks for the help

394890 sub to 845904 Could be a regulator grounding issue but that is rare since it is mounted to the metal shroud of the engine. Looks like you have the 10 amp charging system on that engine. 29 volts AC should give you about 14.5 at the battery if everything is working correctly.