Electrical code & "Grandfather clause"

[frischtr]

I've got a whole lot more to worry about than trying to pick the pepper out of the fly**** by trying to enforce 110.12:confused2:

I hear that...

 

[grsthegreat]

I dont know how it works in PA, but here in the Pacific Northwest the inspectors will NOT require an existing panel to be repaired or upgraded when work is added to it AS LONG AS THERE ISNT A LIFE SAFETY ISSUE.

For example if he finds lose wires, improper grounding, etc he can call you on it. He cannot make you replace your service unless you have overloaded the system. A load calc can be done, but they are fairly complicated to do. If the house has electric heat you can easily reach the 200 amp threshold.

Generally i never run into issues with overloading a 200 amp service in a house that has gas utilities.

There is NO code that states a panel has to look good.... HOWEVER there is a code that states all work MUST be completed in a workman like manner. tricky at times. Generally is i am called to work on an existing panel, ill generally rework the guts of the panel to make it look cleaner. I dont like my inspectors to think im a sloppy electrician.

The rule of thumb in Idaho and Wash state, if the work exceeds 10% of the value of the structure, then the panel would have to be brought up to code.

 

[whitedogone]

I dont know how it works in PA, but here in the Pacific Northwest the inspectors will NOT require an existing panel to be repaired or upgraded when work is added to it AS LONG AS THERE ISNT A LIFE SAFETY ISSUE.

For example if he finds lose wires, improper grounding, etc he can call you on it. He cannot make you replace your service unless you have overloaded the system. A load calc can be done, but they are fairly complicated to do. If the house has electric heat you can easily reach the 200 amp threshold.

Generally i never run into issues with overloading a 200 amp service in a house that has gas utilities.

There is NO code that states a panel has to look good.... HOWEVER there is a code that states all work MUST be completed in a workman like manner. tricky at times. Generally is i am called to work on an existing panel, ill generally rework the guts of the panel to make it look cleaner. I dont like my inspectors to think im a sloppy electrician.

The rule of thumb in Idaho and Wash state, if the work exceeds 10% of the value of the structure, then the panel would have to be brought up to code.

All good points. I've never heard of the 10% "rule of thumb"

 

[grsthegreat]

All good points. I've never heard of the 10% "rule of thumb"

thats just what they use up here. after the so called 10% they can insist on upgrades, smoke detectors, gfci's etc.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

All good points. I've never heard of the 10% "rule of thumb"

I heard a similar thing from an inspector in Rhode Island, except it was if work exceeds 1/3 of the value of the house the septic has to be brought up to code. I don't know if he was just making it up or if it's really in the code somewhere.

The thing to remember is that codes are highly local. There may be a National Electrical Code but there really aren't national standards. My town of 1500 people has an inspector who works for the town, things are different here than in the next town over.

 

[ultrarunner]

PS, Codes change as well. Cloth covered wires exposed and run with
porcelin insulators passed inspection 50+ years ago, not now.

They still do and just about every home I have lived in has Knob and Tube wiring.

The key is that it must be in good condition and not altered.

Now, if you would have said aluminum for 15 and 20 amp circuits... some insurance companies will not write a policy just as some here will require circuit breakers... not a code issues... just a reality.

Knob and Tube isn't all bad... just look at most utility poles...

 

[raykos]

Thank you all for responding, appreciate it.

 

[grsthegreat]

Knob and tube had no issues...until houses were insulated.

Think about bare wires covered in insulation.....unseen

As a liability issue i will NOT work on a knob^tube wired house except to totally rewire it.

 

[Groo]

I don't understand the hate for DIY electricians here. I am a self taught DIY electrician, mainly because I had to become one. Many of the licensed jokers don't give a crap about the junk they leave behind as long as the check clears. I have to live in the house with those I love!

My parents' house was built new in 79. I am still finding bad connections from time to time when a light quits working. I am also not a fan of how the 200 amp service consists or a pair of 100 amp panels. The first house I purchased was built in the 50's the "professionally rewired" much later. Needless to say the re-wiring consisted of only a new breaker box and what was easy to see. Look inside the walls and you'd see all sorts of crumbling ungrounded wires. Some circuits would supply to parts of 4 or more rooms, the hallway light was off the GFCI in the bathroom, and the kitchen was just a plain mess. My current house is an absolute nightmare. I've redone about half of it so far, and the rest needs to be redone too. I am also going to run sub-panels to 2 outbuildings before too long, maybe I'll get one done this summer.

ps. The Knob and Tube stuff in my current house is the best stuff in it apart from what I've redone.

 

[ultrarunner]

My first home was built in 1922 and I bought it from the original owner... they bought it new when they married and never had any children.

It still had the 1922 bath with Standard Fixtures, the High Leg Occidental Stove and unpainted tracks in the double hung windows... I bet the paint inside the closets dated from 1922 too.

Aside from getting used to only two outlets in each room... I didn't have a single electrical issue and the knob and tube has served well... a 30 amp main with a light and plug circuits.

It's kind of ironic because my home was one of about 80 built in the sub-division and many have suffered through horrible remodels and alterations... the man next door is on his third service... it was upgraded to 60 amp and now has 125 amp and he has had lots of electrical issues...

My identical little home has had none... gravity gas central heat, gas cooking, gas water heater and a gas dryer...

Sometimes... more is just more and not necessarily better.... at least this is my opinion from some of the horrible remodels I have seen...

Funny thing is my original home is worth the same or more then the ones that have been serial remodeled...

Folks added press and stick floor tiles, popcorn ceilings, particle board vanities, cheap aluminum windows... removed all the period wood trim, painted the beautiful crafted fireplaces... etc.

A friend bought a home even older from the original family... it is located at Adam's point near Lake Merrit... each room still had the gas light fixtures... although the gas line in the basement had been capped.

He paid a lot of money to an electrician to rewire the entire home... they totally butchered the house... 3 and 4 inch holes drilled everywhere... even in solid 1 x 14 heart redwood baseboards... I had never seen anything like it... the estimate to repair the electrician damaged walls and mouldings is more then the $9,000 plus paid to the electrician... and it all started because the wife wanted an electric self-cleaning oven....

 

[hr3]

I don't understand the hate for DIY electricians here. I am a self taught DIY electrician, mainly because I had to become one. Many of the licensed jokers don't give a crap about the junk they leave behind as long as the check clears. I have to live in the house with those I love!

My parents' house was built new in 79. I am still finding bad connections from time to time when a light quits working. I am also not a fan of how the 200 amp service consists or a pair of 100 amp panels. The first house I purchased was built in the 50's the "professionally rewired" much later. Needless to say the re-wiring consisted of only a new breaker box and what was easy to see. Look inside the walls and you'd see all sorts of crumbling ungrounded wires. Some circuits would supply to parts of 4 or more rooms, the hallway light was off the GFCI in the bathroom, and the kitchen was just a plain mess. My current house is an absolute nightmare. I've redone about half of it so far, and the rest needs to be redone too. I am also going to run sub-panels to 2 outbuildings before too long, maybe I'll get one done this summer.

ps. The Knob and Tube stuff in my current house is the best stuff in it apart from what I've redone.

I don't think it hate you hear just frustration at times..

 

[jonyyuma]

Personally, I don't hate anyone..Especially Not DIY'sers...The hazards are always there...AS GR said,, Welders, panels and Genset, problems run here regularlly...Everyone has an opinion, code books change everyyear..We have the best available, illustrations help clear some of the fog...I do not Wire houses, only if trapped by In-laws , will I open their panels.. I have seen way too much crap installed, by People whom are Diy or even person whom hire out as Electro's.....Inspects have their hands full, trying to be effecient....Mis-interpetation can be by one word, as in Stationary or portable??

 

[Groo]

My basic point is you get dangerous idiotic short cuts from home owners as well as "pros". At least the amateurs can plead ignorance. The ones who are paid to do the work can only plead incompetence and/or apathy.
Another example; The mobile home I am tearing apart doesn't even use junction boxes in the walls, just twist nuts! and half of the ground wires are ignored or snipped. I'm not sure when it was built, but it is new enough to have a modern breaker box (maybe I'll re-use it as one of my sub-panels) and modern wiring.