Electrical issue and question

[Code54]

Quick update - got under the machine and undid the ground on the motor - cleaned it extremely well and replaced the ends. Get a good continuity check on the ground, no if's and's or buts....

getting 12.5v on the battery when I tested it sitting next to the machine not hooked to anything.

Hook the cables up and am still getting 12.5 - no change when I put the cables on now

Hit the starter and had 4.9-5V showing on he tester.

Replaced the relay - no change except it now does make a click when it gets power

Still no start - sounds like I am getting a little current to the starter as I hear a little click back there but don't have long enough arms to reach it and see what I am showing there. May check it later when the wife is back to hold some tester leads. (first I need to convince her she is not going to get electrocuted.... That maybe a challenge)

Also checked the switch and I am getting power and ground at that also.
Just odd how it worked fine before and now, nothing??????
Thanks again

 

[Scrambler82]

You may have other bad connections not allowing full current to,the components.
The frame although big and steel is not the best method for grounding.
Also, is the relay separate and mounted on the firewall. If so you may need a better ground for that too.
The clicking you hear maybe just low voltage getting to,the relay, enough to make the relay partially activate but not enough to do the job needed of it. Again grounding can cause these problems.

Luck

 

[k0ua]

Ok so now we know we are not shorting out the battery with something on the machine when you hook up the battery cables. In your first post you lead us to believe by the test light that was the case.. But now you say the battery voltage stays around 12.5 with every thing hooked up.

Now you say the battery voltage drops to under 5 volts when attempting to start the machine. OK, need to know, is this voltage measured right on the battery terminals themselves. NOT on the cable connections? The idea of asking this is to make sure you do not have a major voltage drop due to high resistance in the connection between the cable connectors and the battery terminals. If you are measuring the voltage right on the battery terminals, and seeing a 7.5 volt drop, the most likely culprit is a battery with a high internal resistance.

Yes, I know you tried two batteries, but do we know that both of these batteries are good.? The other alternative is your starter is stuck and will not rotate? And is dragging down the battery voltage.. Does the battery wiring get hot really quickly? I know you probably don't have one of the handy dandy high current measuring meters to measure the draw of the starter, but if you hit the key and the measurement on the battery terminals is only 5 volts. It has to be one or the other, a VERY high current draw, or the more likely scenario of a high internal resistance inside the battery. In which case replace battery with a known good one.

Keep in mind, if you measured a 12.6 volt battery with a 1000 ohm resistor in series with one of your tester leads, you would still measure 12.6 volts. BUT you could not hook this 1000 ohm resistor in series with you starter and expect it to spin the starter. You would have 12.6 volts on one side of the resistor and nearly 0 volts on the starter side of the resistor.
The maximum current you could expect to draw from the battery is .0126 amps. No where near the maybe 75 amps your starter is trying to draw.
Sometimes Batteries develop high internal resistances to current flow.. The voltage can measure just fine on the battery until a load is placed on them. and down they go. This is why batteries are load tested, not just voltage tested. All batteries have internal resistance, it is just a matter of how much.

So in summation if you measured 5 volts directly on the battery terminals during the act of attempting to crank, then the most likely thing is a defective battery, unless your wiring is getting nice and toasty real quick.

 

[Xfaxman]

Thanks Guys!

Most of my learning on this type of stuff comes from the net and sitting in the shop trying to figure it out so your help is greatly appreciated!

Here is a video (for a car or tractor) that will help you troubleshoot your Mule starter problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg

 

[SpudHauler]

That is a great video Xfaxman. He has some good video's on electrical troubleshooting.

 

[Code54]

Ok so now we know we are not shorting out the battery with something on the machine when you hook up the battery cables. In your first post you lead us to believe by the test light that was the case.. But now you say the battery voltage stays around 12.5 with every thing hooked up.

Now you say the battery voltage drops to under 5 volts when attempting to start the machine. OK, need to know, is this voltage measured right on the battery terminals themselves. NOT on the cable connections? The idea of asking this is to make sure you do not have a major voltage drop due to high resistance in the connection between the cable connectors and the battery terminals. If you are measuring the voltage right on the battery terminals, and seeing a 7.5 volt drop, the most likely culprit is a battery with a high internal resistance.

Yes, I know you tried two batteries, but do we know that both of these batteries are good.? The other alternative is your starter is stuck and will not rotate? And is dragging down the battery voltage.. Does the battery wiring get hot really quickly? I know you probably don't have one of the handy dandy high current measuring meters to measure the draw of the starter, but if you hit the key and the measurement on the battery terminals is only 5 volts. It has to be one or the other, a VERY high current draw, or the more likely scenario of a high internal resistance inside the battery. In which case replace battery with a known good one.

Keep in mind, if you measured a 12.6 volt battery with a 1000 ohm resistor in series with one of your tester leads, you would still measure 12.6 volts. BUT you could not hook this 1000 ohm resistor in series with you starter and expect it to spin the starter. You would have 12.6 volts on one side of the resistor and nearly 0 volts on the starter side of the resistor.
The maximum current you could expect to draw from the battery is .0126 amps. No where near the maybe 75 amps your starter is trying to draw.
Sometimes Batteries develop high internal resistances to current flow.. The voltage can measure just fine on the battery until a load is placed on them. and down they go. This is why batteries are load tested, not just voltage tested. All batteries have internal resistance, it is just a matter of how much.

So in summation if you measured 5 volts directly on the battery terminals during the act of attempting to crank, then the most likely thing is a defective battery, unless your wiring is getting nice and toasty real quick.

Thank you for the vide0 -that was great!
To answer some of the questions:

Originally when the cables were hooked up I seemed to have a short. Redoing all the connections seemed to fix that problem.

OK, need to know, is this voltage measured right on the battery terminals themselves. NOT on the cable connections? - yes Sir - on the battery, not the cables. Also the cable was not getting warm to the touch.

I also removed the battery today and used a battery charger/jump starter (ended up buying one (up to 200amp) as this was a good excuse to get one) Set it to jump start and still nothing. Moved it over to the ATV (which the battery is currently out of anyway), used it there and fired it up immediately so that proved it was working.

Check of the battery which was in the charger showed 11.4 volts - after being on the trickle charger for 2 days - guess that one is shot!

I also did a test of the voltage at the solenoid - NOTHING! The the only things in the circuit (I think) are the switch, the relay and an "igniter" (really have no idea what the heck it does to be honest but it is wee little and costs $50 to replace).

Was thinking about trying to bypass the switch (unplug it and use jumpers) and see if anything happens. Is this a bad idea?? Seems like a good one but I have been wrong before.

Anyway, that is where I am now - as always, your thoughts and ideas are appreciated!
THANKS

 

[Code54]

Ok so now we know we are not shorting out the battery with something on the machine when you hook up the battery cables. In your first post you lead us to believe by the test light that was the case.. But now you say the battery voltage stays around 12.5 with every thing hooked up.

Now you say the battery voltage drops to under 5 volts when attempting to start the machine. OK, need to know, is this voltage measured right on the battery terminals themselves. NOT on the cable connections? The idea of asking this is to make sure you do not have a major voltage drop due to high resistance in the connection between the cable connectors and the battery terminals. If you are measuring the voltage right on the battery terminals, and seeing a 7.5 volt drop, the most likely culprit is a battery with a high internal resistance.

Yes, I know you tried two batteries, but do we know that both of these batteries are good.? The other alternative is your starter is stuck and will not rotate? And is dragging down the battery voltage.. Does the battery wiring get hot really quickly? I know you probably don't have one of the handy dandy high current measuring meters to measure the draw of the starter, but if you hit the key and the measurement on the battery terminals is only 5 volts. It has to be one or the other, a VERY high current draw, or the more likely scenario of a high internal resistance inside the battery. In which case replace battery with a known good one.

Keep in mind, if you measured a 12.6 volt battery with a 1000 ohm resistor in series with one of your tester leads, you would still measure 12.6 volts. BUT you could not hook this 1000 ohm resistor in series with you starter and expect it to spin the starter. You would have 12.6 volts on one side of the resistor and nearly 0 volts on the starter side of the resistor.
The maximum current you could expect to draw from the battery is .0126 amps. No where near the maybe 75 amps your starter is trying to draw.
Sometimes Batteries develop high internal resistances to current flow.. The voltage can measure just fine on the battery until a load is placed on them. and down they go. This is why batteries are load tested, not just voltage tested. All batteries have internal resistance, it is just a matter of how much.

So in summation if you measured 5 volts directly on the battery terminals during the act of attempting to crank, then the most likely thing is a defective battery, unless your wiring is getting nice and toasty real quick.

Thank you for the vide0 -that was great!
To answer some of the questions:

Originally when the cables were hooked up I seemed to have a short. Redoing all the connections seemed to fix that problem.

OK, need to know, is this voltage measured right on the battery terminals themselves. NOT on the cable connections? - yes Sir - on the battery, not the cables. Also the cable was not getting warm to the touch.

I also removed the battery today and used a battery charger/jump starter (ended up buying one (up to 200amp) as this was a good excuse to get one) Set it to jump start and still nothing. Moved it over to the ATV (which the battery is currently out of anyway), used it there and fired it up immediately so that proved it was working.

Check of the battery which was in the charger showed 11.4 volts - after being on the trickle charger for 2 days - guess that one is shot!

I also did a test of the voltage at the solenoid - NOTHING! The the only things in the circuit (I think) are the switch, the relay and an "igniter" (really have no idea what the heck it does to be honest but it is wee little and costs $50 to replace).

Was thinking about trying to bypass the switch (unplug it and use jumpers) and see if anything happens. Is this a bad idea?? Seems like a good one but I have been wrong before.

Anyway, that is where I am now - as always, your thoughts and ideas are appreciated!
THANKS

 

[Scrambler82]

I do not know what the relay looks like.
Can you get a picture of the relay ?
How about the starter, well lighted so,all the connectios show ?
Another picture might be the battery and connections ?

Thanks

 

[k0ua]

"igniter"? what the heck is an igniter? I don't have a clue.

 

[Code54]

Thought that was an odd one also - that is right from the parts diagram directly from Kawasaki.
I did find this on line:
Igniter. Some earlier Kawasaki engines have an igniter that is separate from the ignition coil. On newer engines, the igniter has been incorporated into the coil.

I can get photos tomorrow - no problem.
The relay is just the older round style that the switch runs to - found one at NAPA fairly cheap so I replaced it - figured it was old anyway so I figured it was worth it. The little Igniter is $50 - if it was $5 or 10 I would have just replaced it also but $50 seems a bit steep to me.
Now I am wondering how the heck I can test it????
Thanks again all

 

[Scrambler82]

Can you jump the starter relay by shorting between the battery power side of the relay to one of the smaller ignition studs out front of the relay... You can by pass the ignition, it won't start but you can eliminate the relay mounting and ground and maybe eliminate the starter.

I still would like to see pictures.

 

[k0ua]

Ok, lets go over what we know now. It seems you have a bad battery or two right? I assume you are buying a new one now.

If that doesn't fix the problems, lets go back over the basics and define our goals.
The problem is the engine wont crank, correct? Not whether the ignition works or not. Lets just concentrate on getting the engine crankshaft to turn under power of the starter motor.

So after replacing the battery, and the engine still will not crank, lets start over by measuring for voltage on the large bolt on the starter while attempting to start. Do we have a nominal 12 volts on this large bolt? this should be a direct connection from the battery. Now what about the starter solenoid bolt/connection. ? What do we have there? Do we have a good connection from the starter to the frame?

Lets review what the starter solenoid and starter does and how they work. Now I don't know anything about a "mule" but most starters are just a DC motor that draws a large amount of current especially when it is actually spinning the engine over. What is the purpose of the starter solenoid? It is two fold, it is high current "contactor" which is like a relay in that regard, but it also has a mechanical function in that it moves the pinion gear into contact with the ring gear on the flywheel.
How does it doe this? Well it has a coil just like a relay, but this coil is very powerful and has the mechanical strength to move that gear into engagement with the flywheel against a powerful spring and at the same time its electrical function is to make a sizeable set of contacts engage to make the final connection of the battery to the stator of the DC motor portion of the starter.

So this starter solenoid portion of the starter itself draws a sizeable amount of current and is more than the little key switch could handle, so we use a starter relay that can handle this current thru its contacts that is energized by its coil which is connected to the key switch contacts which can only handle a small amount of current.

So, knowing all of this, the question becomes, Does the starter solenoid connection have voltage when the key is turned to the start positon? If not, did the starter relay coil pull in? if not did the key switch apply power to the starter relay coil? Does the other side of the starter relay coil have a ground so that current will flow thru the coil? Are there safety switches?

Answer some of these questions, and let us know what you find. I realize all of this is just words, but I am a bit far away to be of much actual physical help, and words are all I have to help you with.

 

[Code54]

OK - quick update.
A buddy of mine with a good deal of electrical experience came over last night and we got to work. He is where I am as of now:

I bought the new battery and it is on the charger
Found the brake switch is bad (all it does is the brake light so it is not related to my issue)
The interlock is working and tested good.
The starter was locked - we jumped it and nothing. Ended up pulling the starter and solenoid and ordered the new set today.
Also discovered the relay that NAPA said was an exact match was NOT. Looked the same, had the same unusual fitting but the internal "switching" was not set up the same on the same pins. Pulled it and ordered the correct replacement.
Seems to have hit several problems - not sure what happened to the battery, it was not too old (I don't think but I got the machine used late last summer) but with the other problems who knows what happened.
Anyway the new parts should be in later this week so I hope to have it up and running by next Saturday!
THANK YOU all for the help and I will let you know what happens with it next week.
The good thing is I learned a LOT and also got a crash course in reading wiring diagrams so other than $120 in parts it was a good learning opportunity....

 

[SpudHauler]

Great update. Thanks. Keeps us posted. And Good Luck, looks like you are on the road to success.

 

[Code54]

I sure hope so! LOL
THANKS

 

[aerojd]

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