Electrical Issue

[Coyote machine]

It's not a fuse, it's a breaker. It's not a neutral, it's the ground cable. Batteries can have internal shorts, and a bad/corroded ground cable can cause all kinds of problems. Proper troubleshooting an electrical system starts at the battery and moves forward through the ground side and then the positive side, ruling out each item along the way. This electrical system is simplistic in relying on one breaker to protect the entire harness. Breakers do go bad like any other electro-mechanical device. Now the battery has been ruled out. The system has multiple problems aside from a single breaker. It has already shown one hot wire to be grounding out, which has now been dealt with. Others may also exist, but logical process beginning to end is what will render this unit free of intermittent shorts, bad grounds, etc. The harness may be worn out and in need of a new custom wiring job, but to determine the best outcome and the longest lasting will take the OP some time and troubleshooting to see where the actual issues lie.
Mil spec wiring could be a good answer, but marine wiring, which is readily available, and is tinned copper wire would be great for a system that is exposed to the elements.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

 

[MossRoad]

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

You could always ship your machine to me for, ah, err, "testing" while you are globe trekking. It would be re-wired when you returned (with some hours on the meter for that "testing", of course).

Good luck with the troubleshooting. The tunnel is a major source of movement, wear and tear on hoses and wiring. Good place to start. Get some good labeling tape and label all the wires and connections before you pull them. Helps a great deal when you go to hook everything back up. A Brother P-Touch labeler with wire labeling tape works great.

 

[cqaigy2]

I had an old 47 willys jeep that started to have numerous electrical issues, like head lights going out on a hill climb, smoke when braking, bad charging etc. After farting around with everything, i just decided to rewire. Diagrammed, pulled wire loom everywhere i could then started pulling wire. Labeled wires as i went. As i replaced parts of the electrical, the jeep had fewer problems. The last part was the replacement of the 6 volt generator with 12 volt alternator and load resisters where needed. Oh and added a fuse block to wire different circuits with fuses. I didn't do it all at once but one circuit at a time, until all new.

 

[ponytug]

On my 1445, it isn't wires and loom from the factory, it is a single ~3/4" diameter cord, with ~14 wires in it of varying gauges, plus hemp, plus over molded rubber. It would be tough to get it pinched in the tunnel. The heavier gauges run power to the instrument cluster and the wire block under the instrument cluster, the lesser gauge wires transmit signals (oil pressure, fuel level, etc.) and run the control circuits (draft, PTO, brake, etc.) back. As I mentioned above, I tripped across a very similar looking cable once on a wire and cable supplier, where you could buy it by the foot, but I would have to pull my dash to get back under to check how many wires it actually has and the sizes. My recollection is it was an elevator cable, which was nice because the outer jacket was oil and abrasion resistant.

If you are looking at rewiring anything, I would start by replacing this main cable. Since the main cable screws into DIN wire blocks on mine, the failure mode is likely to be the cable. That said, I use a copper conductivity dielectric compound on every connection that I touch on the PT. You put it on once, it stops corrosion, improves conductivity, and basically eliminates intermittent connections. I got mine from DelCity, but there are a number of suppliers.

Good luck on your world tour. Eye shades, and ear plugs for flying and as much sunshine and fresh air as I can get is my recipe for staying lucid.

All the best,

Peter

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

 

[BobRip]

It's not a fuse, it's a breaker. It's not a neutral, it's the ground cable. Batteries can have internal shorts, and a bad/corroded ground cable can cause all kinds of problems. Proper troubleshooting an electrical system starts at the battery and moves forward through the ground side and then the positive side, ruling out each item along the way. This electrical system is simplistic in relying on one breaker to protect the entire harness. Breakers do go bad like any other electro-mechanical device. Now the battery has been ruled out. The system has multiple problems aside from a single breaker. It has already shown one hot wire to be grounding out, which has now been dealt with. Others may also exist, but logical process beginning to end is what will render this unit free of intermittent shorts, bad grounds, etc. The harness may be worn out and in need of a new custom wiring job, but to determine the best outcome and the longest lasting will take the OP some time and troubleshooting to see where the actual issues lie.
Mil spec wiring could be a good answer, but marine wiring, which is readily available, and is tinned copper wire would be great for a system that is exposed to the elements.

Some good points here. Yes a battery can have an internal short, but that is very unlikely to cause the breaker to blow. It will load the alternator more, but not load the breaker. The battery is the power source and with an internal short of a cell the voltage will be lower. This will reduce the current to the loads, not increase it. Your other points are right on. Sorry to nit pick. With multiple problems you have to go over everything, but the tunnel is a likely failure area with the flexing and rubbing of wire and insulation.

 

[Coyote machine]

Some good points here. Yes a battery can have an internal short, but that is very unlikely to cause the breaker to blow. It will load the alternator more, but not load the breaker. The battery is the power source and with an internal short of a cell the voltage will be lower. This will reduce the current to the loads, not increase it. Your other points are right on. Sorry to nit pick. With multiple problems you have to go over everything, but the tunnel is a likely failure area with the flexing and rubbing of wire and insulation.

Thanks. And, I'm not saying the battery, if it had an internal short, would cause the breaker to blow. What I'm attempting to do is simplify things for the OP by suggesting a method to effect the best results in the shortest amount of time and money, to sort out the entire electrical system.
Battery and grounds, breaker verification, harness assessment and resolution. By applying a logical approach one eliminates problems as they are found and then does an assessment of the entire system's ability to perform properly, or take steps to remedy it by starting from scratch and adding a newly wired harness and necessary upgrades such as new fuse box or additional breakers in key circuits.
Additionally, nothing gets overlooked in the process so when complete all systems are go.
This comes from first hand knowledge and building/design of complex HVAC systems, high end foreign auto repair and restoration; including insurance work for bank repoed cars, and complete replacement of wiring harnesses/dash clusters on fire damaged Volvos, etc. Additionally, I have been, as time allows completely rewiring my boat from stem to stern. It never ceases to amaze me how a boat's wiring can deteriorate and turn to dust, in this case since new in 2000. I've replaced plastic housing bilge pumps where the composite material has become so brittle that any amount of force and it just gives way and cracks. Wiring too, even though marine grade, after having been in Florida for maybe 10 years is completely toast, turns pink from all the salt in the air, etc. Wiring insulation and the wires inside become brittle, resist current flow, and then just stop working.

One key thing the OP mentioned in a recent post was the problem(s) seem to occur when the machine is hot. This often indicates possible circuits/wiring,etc. that have sustained heat/cold damage and wear and tear # of hours on the machine type breakdown of insulation, and other signs associated with end of life cycle of the actual wires. Where the damage is may not be as important in the long run as that the damage has/is occurring now. The OP seems to have been lucky to date, but from now until he does a rewire he could just chase his tail from one to another fault endlessly. If he can afford to take the machine out of service until a wiring overhaul was completed, I think he'd be happier in the short and long run. JMHO.

 

[BobRip]

Thanks. And, I'm not saying the battery, if it had an internal short, would cause the breaker to blow. What I'm attempting to do is simplify things for the OP by suggesting a method to effect the best results in the shortest amount of time and money, to sort out the entire electrical system.
Battery and grounds, breaker verification, harness assessment and resolution. By applying a logical approach one eliminates problems as they are found and then does an assessment of the entire system's ability to perform properly, or take steps to remedy it by starting from scratch and adding a newly wired harness and necessary upgrades such as new fuse box or additional breakers in key circuits.
Additionally, nothing gets overlooked in the process so when complete all systems are go.
This comes from first hand knowledge and building/design of complex HVAC systems, high end foreign auto repair and restoration; including insurance work for bank repoed cars, and complete replacement of wiring harnesses/dash clusters on fire damaged Volvos, etc. Additionally, I have been, as time allows completely rewiring my boat from stem to stern. It never ceases to amaze me how a boat's wiring can deteriorate and turn to dust, in this case since new in 2000. I've replaced plastic housing bilge pumps where the composite material has become so brittle that any amount of force and it just gives way and cracks. Wiring too, even though marine grade, after having been in Florida for maybe 10 years is completely toast, turns pink from all the salt in the air, etc. Wiring insulation and the wires inside become brittle, resist current flow, and then just stop working.

One key thing the OP mentioned in a recent post was the problem(s) seem to occur when the machine is hot. This often indicates possible circuits/wiring,etc. that have sustained heat/cold damage and wear and tear # of hours on the machine type breakdown of insulation, and other signs associated with end of life cycle of the actual wires. Where the damage is may not be as important in the long run as that the damage has/is occurring now. The OP seems to have been lucky to date, but from now until he does a rewire he could just chase his tail from one to another fault endlessly. If he can afford to take the machine out of service until a wiring overhaul was completed, I think he'd be happier in the short and long run. JMHO.

Like I said you have a lot of good points. Your info above was very informative. I just wanted to clear up one point. Your experience base far exceeds mine in this area and it is much appreciated and respected by me.

 

[Coyote machine]

Hey BobRip,
The feelings mutual.:thumbsup: You too know what you're talking about and have some very valid insights. There is always room to learn IMHO.
The outcome of this thread and the OP's decisions will be interesting to see where they lead and the final result.

 

[Poorman1234]

So, things are suddenly going south on the PT. And in an area that I think PT has failed miserably in, which is electrical.

My system is protected by one circuit breaker, making identification of a failing system impossible in my opinion to track down.

I just cleaned my ground terminals, and found a short in a seat wiring, but what is happening is randomly the engine is shutting down, and in doing so it is blowing the breaker. What is weird is that the engine starts to conk out, then comes back, conks again then dies with the breaker popping at that moment. I don't know if there is a thermal disconnect on the breaker (meaning it momentarily opens thus starting to stall the engine, cools and reconnects then the engine winds back up then dies again, popping the breaker).

Any thoughts on how to trouble shoot an intermittent electric with only one breaker?

I have one further thought....As time went on, my battery cables corroded inside. While they still made connection, their internal resistance went up and they could not carry the current efficiently. Replacing these made the machine start like new again. Make sure you check, not only the point to point connections, but wire resistance as well.