Electronic Flasher Circuit

[MossRoad]

Do you have a link to your source for LED lights?

 

[MChalkley]

MossRoad - You can order them directly from the manufacturer, if they don't have a dealer in your area. Their phone number is on their <A target="_blank" HREF=http://members.aol.com/tmimfg/index.htm>web site</A>.

 

[MossRoad]

Thanks.

 

[Keoke]

Mark, on the Kubota flasher. They are 3 kinds of basic flashers. The first and most comon, is a FIXED load flasher. This flasher has a bi-metal hinge in series with a set of contacts that are fixed closed. As the current (load) flows through the hinge it heats up and bends open, thus opening the circuit (lights out) with no current flow hinge cools and closes (lights back on). The speed at which the hinge heats up is controlled by the amount of current that flows through the hinge (approx 2A per bulb). These flashers have to be matched to the cicuit they work in order to get the flashing rate you want. Eg. too much current and you get a high flashrate; hooking a trailer lights to car with this type of flasher will get you this result. On the other hand, if the current load is to low then you will not heat the bi-metal hinge enough to bend it open it and you will then get lights that come on but won't blink. This is common when one of the turn bulbs go out or circuit resistance reduces current flow. Cars come OEM with this flasher because the manufactures want you to know when you have a turn lamp out (a non-blinking steady on dash arrow).
However, cars and trucks that do towing can not use this flasher for it would be normal with no trailer but too fast with trailer. Enter the VARIABLE load flasher, this flasher has a grounded heating coil wraped around the bi-metal hinge. The hinge is not in series with circuit load. This means that heating time is not controlled by circuit (lamps) current flow but by a fixed current going through the heating coil instead. This gives a fixed pulse rate, irespective of the number of bulbs working in the circuit. This kind of flasher is always used in four way flasher circuit because in an accident one never knows how many bulbs you will have left. The down side of this flasher is that by looking at the dash arrows you would not know for if all four corners have working lamps.
The third kind of flasher is the relay type (the Europeans love this one). This is dpdt relay wired as a buzzer, that is, the relay coil is wired in series with the load so that when the points are open the pull coil sees a B+ on one end and a ground on the other (furnished by the bulb filiments to gnd) when the points close the coil is B+ on both ends (lights out) and points open.
This flasher is best for constant heavy duty use since it not a thermal device subject to constant flexing.
On the Hella relay used as a flasher. This relay is sort of a universal unit. It is used as a switch high relay (B+ trigger) a switch low relay (gnd trigger), a buzzer, and as a HD turn flasher.
This relay has 5 terminals.
1. B+ in
2. out-put one, (normal closed points) this gives a hot output with no power to trigger coil. On when B+ is hot.
3. Out-put two, this is hot when the coil has both B+ and
gnd. Or off when term 2 is on.
4. Can either hot or gnd for coil (must be one or the other)
5. Same as four (wired to provide the opposite polarity of four) Note: If coil has diode wired across it for spike protection then polarity is not optional. Trigger B+ must go to cathode of diode.

If it has a sixth terminal this could be to ground relay case to reduce RFI caused by point arcing.

On circuits having only ONE indicator lamp on the dash. This lamp most likely will be powered by terminal two or three, whichever one that is NOT used to power the turn lamps. This means that when turn lamps are on indicator is off and vice versa.
Thermal flashers with THREE terminals (older cars) will use the third terminal for the same purpose This terminal is some time marked with the letter "P" for pilot lamp.
Also, output terminals 2 and 3 can be used to get a "ping-pong effect" on 4-way flasher lamps by wiring the right lamps to term 2 and the left side to term 3. This will alternate flashing left to right.

this reply turned out longer then intended, hope it doesn't bore!
george

 

[MChalkley]

George - Nope, not the slightest bit boring - very illuminating, in fact! (Um, sorry about the pun...)

But, being a bit on the dumb side, I'm still somewhat confused. Does this mean that the DIN standard descriptions I listed in my last post don't apply? Or are the C, C2, and C3 terminals the ones that could be used to get the effect I want? Do you know where I could get a schematic to the Hella flasher?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Keoke]

Mark, the std dpdt relays used by Europeans (DIN/Bosch) for all kinds of circuts have a numerical system that goes like this:
#30= B+ in
#85= B- to trigger coil
#86= B+ to trigger coil
#87= 87 normal close points (30 to 87 connected with coil off)
#87A= closed when coil is powered (30 to 87A connected)

What you have seems to be a relay made for flashers only.
Don't know if those terminal numbers you mentioned are unique to Hella or a DIN std used by all. If I were to guess, I would guess DIN std since Hella is primarily an after market supplier. Only way to know for sure is to see if another manufacture is using the same terminal #'s to trigger the same circuits as yours does. Again, my guess is that they do, but this is just a guess.
Your terminal indicator # C3 may be for a single dash indicator bulb applications instead of the customery left and right arrow setup.
Go to this site for some Bosch and Hella relay info [http://www.chiefent.com]
Also, got a question for you. Do you know if the front rim bolt pattern (6 hole) and hub hole, are made to the same standard on ALL Japanese tractors?? Trying to get wider front rims for my Yanmar made JD970 and I am wondering if Kubota rims would fit.



george

 

[MChalkley]

George - As far as your wheels question goes, to my knowledge, they use the same bolt pattern. In fact, the wheels I got for my L4310 when I switched to Michelin's on the front were stock Titan wheels made for a JD, repainted Orange.

I checked out the web site, but I didn't see any flasher info - only relays. Twinkle_Toes suggested that I just take the flasher out and play with it to see what all the pins do, and I guess that's what I'm going to have to do to see if it'll do what I want it to.

 

[Keoke]

Subject: Re: DIN

Mark,
Couldn't find a schematic but did find descriptions of the numbers on your relay/blinker.

UNDER SECTION CALLED "BATTERY"
31 = Return line to battery - battery terminal or ground direct

UNDER SECTION CALLED TURN SIGNAL FLASHER (PULSE GENERATOR)
49 = Input
49a = Output
49b = Output, second turn signal circuit
49c = Output, third turn signal circuit

UNDER SECTION CALLED DIRECTIONAL SIGNALS (TURN-SIGNAL FLASHER)
C = First indicator lamp
CO = Main terminal connection for separate indicator circuits actuated
by the turn signal switch
C2 = Second indicator lamp
C3 = Third indicator lamp (e.g. when towing two trailers)
L = Turn signal lamps, left
R = Turn signal lamps, right

If I find a schematic - I'll send it.

Hope this helps.

 

[MChalkley]

I just tried testing the Hella flasher. I can't find any combination that causes C, C2, and C3 to do anything. I guess that's why they weren't connected to anything. Maybe it's just a standard case and they leave the terminals in the base to make it mount more securely. At any rate, they don't appear to be connected internally.

So, I'm back to the drawing board. Does anyone know what a Kubota flasher looks like, and how many terminals it has? Or does anyone have any ideas on how I could make my two electronic flashers do what I want? Or perhaps my two plus the OEM one?

Any ideas would be appreciated...

 

[Bird]

Mark, I checked my manuals and they don't have a picture and the sketch (exploded view) is too small to tell anything about it except where it is - behind the instrument panel.

 

[MChalkley]

Bird - Thanks for checking! I don't ever remember seeing the flasher on my L4310, so I figured it must be pretty well buried...

 

[Bird]

I've never seen it either, Mark, but it shows to be on the left side between the instrument panel and the fuel tank.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Mark,
<font color=blue>Does anyone know what a Kubota flasher looks like,yes and how many
terminals it has?yes Or does anyone have any ideas on how I could make my two electronic flashers do what I
want?yes Or perhaps my two plus the OEM one?</font color=blue>

Hope this helps/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif


That was fun /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The B21 flasher is a three terminal device. +12V, Ground and output. The output is a relay contact closure to +12V. Internally it is a two transistor timer controled by a resistor/capacitor network. When it times out, it pulls in a relay for a period of time controlled by the RC network. The period is independent of the lamp current, your LED lamps would work just fine. I have the internal schematic of the part. I did work up a schematic of how I would effect the functionality of your lighting system as I understand it. I'm at work and don't have a part number of the flasher available. I will send you an email later with the P/N and a description of the circuit sufficient for you to figure out that it won't work /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Al

 

[MChalkley]

Al - Cool! /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif But I thought Bird said his flasher had 7 connections! And I don't see how it could do what I'm wanting to do with only three wires. That's essentially like the ones I've got, it sounds. Hmmm. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif I think I'll shut up and wait for your e-mail... I need to talk to you about pressure sensors anyway...

Thanks!!! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Bird]

Mark, I went back and double checked and it sure does show 7 wires connected to it. Unfortunately, the schematic is too big a sheet of paper for my scanner, and goodness knows how long it would take me to learn to scan it in sections and piece them together./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Mark,
Yep 3 wires on the B21 flasher. Now my B7500 is like Bird's 2710, 7 wires.
<font color=blue>I don't see how it could do what I'm
wanting to do with only three wires. </font color=blue>
It would be harder but I'm thinking two of the three terminal flashers. Later
SAW (still @ work).
Al

 

[MChalkley]

Al - <font color=blue>I'm thinking two of the three terminal flashers</font color=blue>

That's great, for two reasons: 1) I already have two 3-wire flashers (three, counting the Hella one already in the EF-5) and 2) I checked with the dealer today and the Kubota 7-wire flasher costs over $50 and change! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

 

[Bird]

Mark, I scanned my schematic in 3 sections; thought I might learn to piece them together, but even though I thought the sizes of each section would be the same, they weren't./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I've played with Picture It! for a couple of hours and so far it's got me beat. I never did figure a way to put the sections together so they'd make sense./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Bird - I sure do appreciate your efforts, but you've spent way too much time on it already. I'm sure my local Kubota dealer can make a copy of it for me. I'm sorry you spent that much time on it without getting it, though - that's frustrating.

 

[Bird]

Mark, I just thought I'd get a little practice and try to learn more about Picture It!. Well, I got a lot of practice all right; but not sure I learned anything except maybe how dense I am./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif