Enamel hardener and paint safety...

[sixdogs]

I like to paint a used implement when I buy it and have been thinking of using the Valspar "Enamel Hardener" from TSC. I am not sure if it is safe or not even though I have a good paint respirator.
The ingredients listed in the can are "Aliphatic Polyisocyanate and Isophorone Diisocyanate" along with Naptha and N-Butyl Acetate.
The can mentions you MUST use a good paint respirator but you MAY also use a supplied-air system.
Can anyone help understanding this? I paint outside.

 

[bjcsc]

If the cartridges in your mask are good for isocyanates, you're in good shape (but most aren't). If not, you're taking some level of risk. If you paint outside, that level of risk drastically decreases.

 

[SPIKER]

the isocyanate's is deadly if not used with proper respirator and or the proper type of air system to keep you breathing. but they are worth using just be safe use proper gear to protect you're health, I painted my dump trailer using these same paint from there & the hardner too, it scratched but still is in great shape considering it has moved 100 ton of creek / wash gravel I scooped up and a lot of that is big rocks and wood tossed in for fun...

mark M

 

[john_bud]

While not an exact medical explanation, you know how spilling super glue on your fingers makes a smooth hard layer on the skin? That's what happens to the inside of your lungs when iso-cyanate's are inhaled. You don't feel any different, but your lung capacity is reduced. It gets less and less every contact and the lung damage is permanent. Soon you will have to stop for a blow after wiping your bottom. I don't know of any cartridge that removes them from the air.

For me, the cost of a supplied air system that is used 1-4 times a year is well worth it.

jb


I got a PM on how much $ and where for the supplied air system. This is old data, but here is where I got my system - price about $400.

Hobbyair 1 Click Here for Options: Autobody Store

 

[ToadHill]

The story isn't about newer paints and the chemicals in them but it is just what can happen if you paint without a mask.
When I was in High School I worked PT in a body shop. The guy I worked for always painted without a mask. He'd been doing it for 30 years. His wife asked him to refinish a couple of dressers and he took them into his basement and applied stripper to them.
He never came up and his wife went to see what happened to him, the autopsy said the stripper loosened all the paint in his lungs and he suffocated.

 

[RedDirt]

Good timing on this post. I'd been considering using the TSC hardener but now I think I'll pass. Another coat of paint in a few years, if needed, beats health problems.

I spray outside w/"standard" paint respirator & old style auto spray gun (not HVLP). Any problems with that system and Rust-O-leum new metal primer, rusty metal primer, and TSC equipment enamel?

 

[sixdogs]

Good timing on this post. I'd been considering using the TSC hardener but now I think I'll pass. Another coat of paint in a few years, if needed, beats health problems.

I spray outside w/"standard" paint respirator & old style auto spray gun (not HVLP). Any problems with that system and Rust-O-leum new metal primer, rusty metal primer, and TSC equipment enamel?

Red Dirt-- We are OK spraying with the non-catalyzed--no iso--finishes if a good respirator is used that is OK to use with paint and chemicals. It says so right on the filetrs. It's the other stuff that is open to debate.
You should look into HVLP. I cut my paint use by 50-70% or so. I have a DeVilbiss Finishline but even Harbor Freight has one for $40 that works great.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Iso's are dangerous. As recently as 3 years ago, manufacturers warning labels/material saftey data sheets indicated you were "safe" painting outdoors and/or with a "good" filtered mask. That's changed. The warnings are a little more specific now. You can absorb iso's through your skin. Even a little vapor, when inhaled can have serious side effects, sometimes not showing up immediately.

I painted 2 tractors with iso hardeners in the paint. I used a top-of-the-line charcoal filtered mask. They don't catch iso's. Almost 2 years after completing the second paint job, I started having symtoms of asthma. The slightest hint of iso vapor will send me to the hospital now. Your resistance is greatly lowered with each exposure. Some people are MORE susceptable than other. Many are inclined to believe they AREN'T susceptable when they get away with early exposure. They continue to use iso's and suffer the consiquences at a later date.

You only get one set of lungs. Don't destroy them.

Wear proper skin protection when using iso's. (Mylar suit, gloves, ect) use a "supplied air" breathing system.

Professional painters usually have the luxury of a downdraft paint booth to carry harmfull paint vapors away and filter them without releasing into the atmosphere. Painting outdoors MAY offer YOU some personal protection, albiet small, but that harmfull compound is released into the air that the rest of us have to breath.

 

[Ford850]

Can those hardeners be added and then use a brush to paint rather than spraying? I'm looking for a durable layer but don't really care if the implements have a nice pretty finish.

 

[john_bud]

Can those hardeners be added and then use a brush to paint rather than spraying? I'm looking for a durable layer but don't really care if the implements have a nice pretty finish.

Yes they can. You will need to add some flow enhancers to get a smooth finish (or just know there will be brush marks).

You will still need to use the same protective equipment as the iso's are given off while evaporating etc.

 

[flusher]

Iso's are dangerous.
I painted 2 tractors with iso hardeners in the paint. I used a top-of-the-line charcoal filtered mask. They don't catch iso's. Almost 2 years after completing the second paint job, I started having symtoms of asthma. The slightest hint of iso vapor will send me to the hospital now. Your resistance is greatly lowered with each exposure. Some people are MORE susceptable than other. Many are inclined to believe they AREN'T susceptable when they get away with early exposure. They continue to use iso's and suffer the consiquences at a later date.

QUOTE]

I checked out that TSC hardener last year when I repainted my 1964 MF-135 diesel. Decided to pass because of the nasty stuff and the safety precautions required. Just used Valspar enamel and VM&P naptha as the thinner in my HVLP sprayer. It turnout out OK for my needs (not nearly as good as the paint job you did recently on your MF-150).

I think I'll use a brush to paint the frame of my recently acquired Ferguson 7-ft pull disk and Allis Chalmers 80T sicklebar trail mower and skip the spray paint hassles since these are implements, not a tractor that has to look pretty.

 

[svcguy]

While a full air system is nice, it's not necessary for once or twice a year. The key is to ensure the mask filters you are using are cleared for iso-cy's, wear full coveralls, gloves and welding hat and wash up afterwards. As suggested, a modern low pressure gun is cheap and safer. If you don't have a respirator yet, go on Ebay and buy a full face North which will cover your facial skin. When possible, spray outside on a clear, calm day.

Bear in mind that you do not need hardeners, it just makes paint tougher under certain conditions. I know people scared to death of iso-cy's and use 2 part epoxies instead, another serious health risk. The real question is how good does your tractor need to look and is it worth any risk at all? When we were on the farm, we used to spray the entire tractor with diesel to keep them from rusting. I don't think anyone ever thought of actually re-painting one.

 

[FlaDon]

Count me in as one who cannot even go near that stuff. The same Iso's are used in some pesticides and I was exposed to them thru the skin. Dostor's warning was exposure to it again could kill me.

 

[myyaz33]

Just the other day I was looking at the TSC enamel hardener for painting my backhoe and past it up because well, I am cheap.. Anyway had no idea the stuff was so bad for you, I am very glad I ran across this thread. Thanks for posting.

 

[mark777]

As late as last year and doing a search from all companies that manufacture face mask respirator chemical or organic filter cartridges, there are NO known filters that achieve <0.02 PPM of Isocyanates, which is the acceptable level of filtration with adequate environmental ventilation controls (exhaust fans). The only PPE (personal protective equipment) that meets and exceeds the minimum levels of toxicity in an industrial-commercial, environmental system that will achieve 99.999% is the ambient air pump, positive pressure full face mask and hood, Tyvek or equivalent chemical resistant suit, gloves and appropriate boots.

Isocyanates are a group of highly reactive and toxic compounds used in the manufacture of urethanes, foams, fibers, and coatings such as paints and varnishes. Isocyanates are also found in the new and rapidly expanding business of spray-on truck-bed liners. The
application of the spray-on truck-bed liner involves mixing a two-part product and spraying the polymerizing liquid.

In much simpler terms and even if you're fully clothed with all the necessary PPE, exhaust fans running, if you are wearing a chemical cartridge mask and can detect the slightest odor, even while mixing the paint before application, you are ingesting Isocyanates.

Mark

 

[sixdogs]

As an updaate to this thread---I sent an e-mail to Valspar at the same time I started this thread. I specifically asked them the "Iso and respirator" question and the fact the back of their can mentions a good paint respirator is OK. Not the preferred choice but OK.
So far, no answer. Which leads me to believe this is a dangerous product sold with incomplete instructons to unsuspecting dupes (that's some of us) at a farm store. I'm not a whiner but this is not right.
End of my rant, no enamel hardener for me. It makes the paint look great and dry fast but the risk could be a big one. If one uses good quality paint from a manufacturer or an auto paint store the finish looks about the same as hardener and you can get by with a respirator.

 

[K9trainer]

And if you would need to grind/ weld on/over these types of paint in the future OOO yuk

 

[Harry c]

Isocyanates in general aren't nearly as bad as this thread indicates. As one of the posts mentioned, Isocyanates are used in the production of urethane products from bowling balls to most mattresses and furniture cushions. The plants that process this stuff don't have to use particularly elaborate or extensive ventilation systems. These isocyanates react with water to form basically a hard plastic. Isocyanate vapors in the air react with the moisture in the air almost instantly. It would almost take an effort to inhale any significant amount of unreacted Isocyanate. Once reacted with water, the Iso is pretty much non-toxic.

In the paint spraying operation, the paint possibly could be in large enough airborne droplets that the Iso might not be totally reacted prior to inhalation. I don't have a feel for that as I've done little "OSHA regulated" spraying.

Iso sensitization is a potentially serious problem. Some individuals develop a condition much like an allergy that causes extreme reactions if re-exposed to even a tiny amount of Isocyanate. Like most allergies, they have no reaction at the first exposure, sometimes for many exposures. The body builds antibodies to the chemical and the next exposure causes the body to react. Similar reactions can occur with other common materials such as latex and peanuts for instance. Most people have no reaction at all to Isocyanate but it can show up any time and it is usually sudden onset. Fine one day- rection the next. I know a man who became terribly allergic to rubber after working in a rubber factory for 22 years. There is evidence that high exposures to the chemicals can increase the chances that sensitization will occur. Avoid breathing the vapors whenever you can. Of course, that should be standard procedure for any chemical.

I am not down playing the risks of the paint, just providing a little information for whoever might be interested. I do work with Isocyanates in manufacturing of some urethane automotive components. The VOC solvents in the paints are far worse environmentally than the Iso and are more closely regulated by the OSHA and the EPA.

 

[hench861]

Isocyanates in general aren't nearly as bad as this thread indicates.
does bhopal india ring a bell, union carbide plant there was producing isocyanates and that was what killed 3800 people over there in 1984 effectively bankrupting union carbideand the effects are still causing health problems there

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Simply put, reactive catalysts in coating products, no matter what people may tell you, are not good for humans.

I worked for a automotive paint distributor for many years and as early as 1982 we were told to discourage use of "hardeners" in enamel paints unless the shop had a downdraft booth and a supplied air system. We were not allowed to sell them "over the counter" to retail customers no matter what they said.

In 1987 we were told by the manufacture that enamel catalyst sales were restricted to commercial customers that had been certified to have the proper equipment and training, no other sales were allowed unless the district manager had inspected the location and certified it.

This was also the same year that the base coat systems came on the scene in a big way and we were cautioned that these were even more toxic, so much so that we were instructed to install a supplied air system in the mixing room. (We had no catalysts there, just base stocks and tints. Up to this point we were using organic certified masks) We were also told to use vapor barrier suits, chemical gloves and install a separate negative pressure HEPA-VOC ventilation system for the mixing room.

There are many complications and symptoms associated with refinish coatings not just lung damage. Nerve, reproductive, immune systems are all at risk. In 1986 there was a report of NY firefighter repair shop workers that were turning up sterile, the common denominator was the Imron paint they were recoating the firetrucks with.

I have seen first hand severe reactions to paint products. One that comes to mind. A customer of mine that had all the proper equipment and training and was certified to paint all products including catalyzed polyurethane enamel, (Imron, about 5x more toxic than acrylic enamel with catalyst) one day was "too busy" to properly prep a car and did the job in the corner of the shop with just a charcoal respirator, later that day he collapsed. He was eventually diagnosed with acute "paint poisoning" and ordered to stay away from autobody shops. What happened was that over the years he had accumulated enough chemicals in his body that he hit that "one time too many" point and had to sell his business.

Read the MSDN sheets of any chemical you use. Don't take any of the information lightly, they are put out for your safety. Don't get caught up in the "It's only one time" mentality. Remember, all those cans of spray paint you have already used without a mask left their mark in you. Your "one time too many" may be closer than you think.

OK, that's my 2 cents,

Tom