Engine H.P.

[Rocky Hoffler]

Looking at Kioti it seems some models run same engine with varying horsepower depending on model what is being done to vary horsepower.

 

[nybirdman]

This done by most of the manufacture's,same block different tuning. Also common in the marine industry.

 

[DK35vince]

This done by most of the manufacture's,same block different tuning. Also common in the marine industry.

Common on heavy trucks also.

 

[IrishStout]

I've noticed the same thing. One 40hp model will have more pto hp than a higher priced 47hp model. Curious for sure.

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

I've noticed the same thing. One 40hp model will have more pto hp than a higher priced 47hp model. Curious for sure.

That is probably the difference in transmissions, the HST will have less PTO power than a shuttle version. I believe some models have 3 different transmission options.

 

[CobyRupert]

I thought things like adjusting amount of fuel and air that gets into engine by changing injector sizes, turbo (or boost) and intake sizes, fuel pump flow, etc.. was the "tuning"?

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

You are correct with "tuning" it is mostly controlled by the computer. I was referring to why an engine with more HP might have the same or less PTO HP as an engine tuned for less power.

 

[finn1]

You have to look at the individual specs. Sometimes it’s simply changing the pulse width command from the ecu. Other times turbochargers and intercoolers are added, along with different injectors or piston bowl configurations.

Sometimes the low power version of a tractor falls in a different emission class, and a cheaper (non-electronic) fuel system is specified.

The general answer to the question is “it depends”.

In general, though, manufacturers try to minimize engine hardware variation across the models to simplify manufacturing.

 

[Walter L]

Looking at Kioti it seems some models run same engine with varying horsepower depending on model what is being done to vary horsepower.

Rocky the LS tractors use the same engine 114.7 ci in 2019 from 35 to 55 hp with the same size turbo just a different computer program and i would suspect the same on Kioti.

 

[JimR]

On the NX series Kiotis they all use the same engine, same injection pump, same injectors and turbo. The HP difference is all regulated by the ECU and fuel delivered to the cylinders. Nobody yet has found a way to crack it or come up with a chip to over ride it. If you do this to your tractor your warranty is null and void.

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

Nobody yet has found a way to crack it or come up with a chip to over ride it.

It (CK have not checked the NX) uses the same ecu as the VW Polo TDI in europe and one or two other Diesel vehicles, it looks like they have cracked the encoding the MFG uses and its checksum. I believe that the tuner I have does not support the newer protocols, but it could be done. If you have access to the higher HP model it should be possible to copy the maps and load it on the lower end version. I'm not sure if the ECU has a flash counter but if not it could be flashed back and they would have no idea it was modified.

 

[JimR]

It (CK have not checked the NX) uses the same ecu as the VW Polo TDI in europe and one or two other Diesel vehicles, it looks like they have cracked the encoding the MFG uses and its checksum. I believe that the tuner I have does not support the newer protocols, but it could be done. If you have access to the higher HP model it should be possible to copy the maps and load it on the lower end version. I'm not sure if the ECU has a flash counter but if not it could be flashed back and they would have no idea it was modified.

Very interesting information. With all the problems with my tractor in the emissions area I am not going to alter anything on this until the warranty is expired. Maybe by then somebody will have cracked it. Interesting that the VW Polo may have the same ECU as the NX. I drove one of the Polo's in France 4 years ago. What a blast to drive and super mileage on the diesel with a stick. .

 

[jimglassford]

Beyond the warranty, if you mess with the fuel system on a diesel and then you need service, a service center is legally forbidden to touch that system. The old mechanical pumps had a seal placed on them. If you sent the pump in for repairs and the seal was missing, the service center is supposed to just ship it back untouched.

 

[JimR]

Beyond the warranty, if you mess with the fuel system on a diesel and then you need service, a service center is legally forbidden to touch that system. The old mechanical pumps had a seal placed on them. If you sent the pump in for repairs and the seal was missing, the service center is supposed to just ship it back untouched.

The Kioti system on my tractor is operated by the ECU, not modifying the injectors or injection pump. Programming does it all.

 

[Threepoint]

Beyond the warranty, if you mess with the fuel system on a diesel and then you need service, a service center is legally forbidden to touch that system. The old mechanical pumps had a seal placed on them. If you sent the pump in for repairs and the seal was missing, the service center is supposed to just ship it back untouched.

I'm curious about this. When you say "legally forbidden," do you mean forbidden contractually by the terms of an agreement with a manufacturer to gain and maintain the status of an "Authorized Dealer," or an "Authorized Service Center" to sell the product or to perform warranty work? That I can certainly see, but I can't imagine there is any law, at least in U.S. jurisprudence, that would or could prevent an independent shop from modifying ECU programming of the injectors to alter fuel delivery. That assumes that the shop has obtained access to software required to do it without violating any law protecting against infringement of intellectual property rights.

 

[aczlan]

I'm curious about this. When you say "legally forbidden," do you mean forbidden contractually by the terms of an agreement with a manufacturer to gain and maintain the status of an "Authorized Dealer," or an "Authorized Service Center" to sell the product or to perform warranty work? That I can certainly see, but I can't imagine there is any law, at least in U.S. jurisprudence, that would or could prevent an independent shop from modifying ECU programming of the injectors to alter fuel delivery. That assumes that the shop has obtained access to software required to do it without violating any law protecting against infringement of intellectual property rights.

The EPA has forbidden it on grounds that the engine then doesn't meet the original emissions standards.

Aaron Z

 

[Threepoint]

The EPA has forbidden it on grounds that the engine then doesn't meet the original emissions standards.

Aaron Z

Aaron, not intending to be argumentative, but do you have a cite that applies here? I thought we were talking about two tractors in the same series, that are both Tier IV and identical in all material respects other than the ECU of one is tuned to deliver, say, 5 more HP than the other for price point reasons. :scratchchin:

 

[aczlan]

Aaron, not intending to be argumentative, but do you have a cite that applies here? I thought we were talking about two tractors in the same series, that are both Tier IV and identical in all material respects other than the ECU of one is tuned to deliver, say, 5 more HP than the other for price point reasons. :scratchchin:

I am not talking about the manufacturer using different ECU programs in the same engine for different tractors at varying horsepowers.
I am talking about a independent shop "turning up" the injection pump (either with hardware modifications or with ECU reflash) to produce more horsepower than the manufacturer intended for that model.
See what they have been doing with tuners for trucks: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/sct-bully-dog-tuners-fined-epa/

Aaron Z

 

[Threepoint]

I am not talking about the manufacturer using different ECU programs in the same engine for different tractors at varying horsepowers.
I am talking about a independent shop "turning up" the injection pump (either with hardware modifications or with ECU reflash) to produce more horsepower than the manufacturer intended for that model.
See what they have been doing with tuners for trucks: SCT/Bully Dog Tuners Fined by the EPA for Clean Air Act Violations - Hot Rod Network

Aaron Z

Aaron, yes, that's what I'm talking about also: An independent shop using software to reprogram the fuel delivery of the injectors on, say, a Kioti CK3510SE HST, to achieve the hp of a Kioti CK4010SE HST. Both tractors are in the same series, are Tier IV compliant, and, I think, are otherwise identical in all material respects, except for decals and price point. Such a mod would not defeat any part of the emission/pollution control system, as far as I can see. And, afterwards, the CK3510SE HST would still be just as Tier IV compliant as the CK4010SE HST, wouldn't it? :scratchchin: I can see how it would be different if the modified tractor was originally exempt from Tier IV compliance or some other legal requirement because of its low hp rating, and the modification increases the hp beyond the exempt rating.

I'm a lifetime learner, and only generally familiar with the Clean Air Act, so if that's the law you have in mind, I would like to learn more about how it specifically could make the first situation unlawful.

This is really just a curiosity for me, as I'm quite happy with the hp of the tractors I have. But I think many of the current manufacturers are similarly derating identical engines solely for pricing/marketing reasons, so I suspect a lot of CUT owners would be interested in this discussion.

Thanks for the link to the article on hotrod.com. As I read it, though, the EPA enforcement action reported there only involved the prohibition of "defeat devices" that modify emission and pollution controls. No question that that's unlawful.

 

[aczlan]

Aaron, yes, that's what I'm talking about also: An independent shop using software to reprogram the fuel delivery of the injectors on, say, a Kioti CK3510SE HST, to achieve the hp of a Kioti CK4010SE HST. Both tractors are in the same series, are Tier IV compliant, and, I think, are otherwise identical in all material respects, except for decals and price point. Such a mod would not defeat any part of the emission/pollution control system, as far as I can see. And, afterwards, the CK3510SE HST would still be just as Tier IV compliant as the CK4010SE HST, wouldn't it? :scratchchin: I can see how it would be different if the modified tractor was originally exempt from Tier IV compliance or some other legal requirement because of its low hp rating, and the modification increases the hp beyond the exempt rating.

I'm a lifetime learner, and only generally familiar with the Clean Air Act, so if that's the law you have in mind, I would like to learn more about how it specifically could make the first situation unlawful.

This is really just a curiosity for me, as I'm quite happy with the hp of the tractors I have. But I think many of the current manufacturers are similarly derating identical engines solely for pricing/marketing reasons, so I suspect a lot of CUT owners would be interested in this discussion.

Thanks for the link to the article on hotrod.com. As I read it, though, the EPA enforcement action reported there only involved the prohibition of "defeat devices" that modify emission and pollution controls. No question that that's unlawful.

I am not sure what the legality would be in such a case, but I suspect that the programming in the ECU that controls the motor is legally required to match the output settings for the serial number and model number tags that are affixed to the motor.
Given them both motors are listed on the Kioti website as being model 3F-TH4-U, in that case you might possibly be able to get away with it.

Aaron Z