engine knock / clatter

[boggen]

allis chalmers CA 1954 tractor.

just got done...
1. pulling starter and greased it, along with checking it all internally
2. checking all wires for shorts.
3. fixing A or F terminal of generator (plastic washer broke causing short) (along with greased the bearings)
4. new 6v battery (old one was dead)
5. new spark plugs
6. new head lights, 1 was burned out, other not looking to good.
7. pulled apart carb and ran some carb cleaner across all the parts.

8. mowed for approx 2 hours. cutting thicker grass, in 3rd gear. (pushing the tractor in a pretty good load)
9. rain clouds coming in, choice either mow rest of front of farm, or go hit some spots on the back that are nasty when wet. headed to back of farm. got about 1 strip around.... noticed "white smoke" coming from the spark plug side of engine. almost like a puff of a cigarette hardly noticeable. and took me a few minutes turning about and dealing with wind. i only saw white smoke while actually cutting grass (under load). not running over/turning around on already cut grass. ((i thought eyes were playing tricks on me initially))
10. engine knocking. (see video) the clatter clatter clatter was not there before, if it was, it is much, much louder now.

not sure if i screwed something up / something out of adjustment, or this is a new issue.

being noobie. have some seafoam. i could run through carb / gas, along with engine oil. but figure best ask before i get myself into more trouble.

 

[TCJatko]

Sounds like valve clatter to me; did you adjust the valves?

 

[ericm979]

It doesn't sound like loose valves to me, but being a video it's more difficult to tell. Loose valves are more of a ticking sound, and the sound is more regular at constant rpm but varies with rpm. Of course it depends on how loose the valve adjustment is, and the valvetrain. In any case loose valves would not cause white smoke. A blown head gasket would, from coolant getting into the combustion chamber.

Check the coolant- if there's oil in it or its milky (suspended oil) that's the head gasket leaking. Or if there's water in the oil (also milky or frothy). Next check is a compression test. The way it sounds I half expect there to be compression leaking past the gasket to the outside. When it's running pass your hand around the head gasket area and feel for pulses of air coming out.

 

[IH3444]

Sounds like head gasket leak. Compression test. If confirmed, pull head before any damage to surfaces occur. Deck head, and do a quality valve job.

 

[boggen]

have yet to do anything yet, looking at some youtube videos. trying to get an idea of what i am getting myself into. looks like if i am pulling the head. i should be prepared to remove the valves and clean them up.

what other tools / cleaners / and like might i need?

1. compression kit (looks like generic cheap kit will work i am assuming)
2. lapping tool
3. saw something about a "fine grit" valve cleaner (use with lapping tool)?
4. valve spring compression tool (cheapy)
5. package of new razor blades (need another package)
6. wire brush? (clean gasket material off) (what i have is nearly destroyed)
7. wire wheel for bench grinder, any suggestions? (to clean valves)
8. any suggestions on a parts cleaner, carb cleaner, or acetone?

misc...
see if owners manual i have has torque specs for engine. "doubtful"

 

[Coyote machine]

Before jumping to conclusion you 'have' to pull the head, do the due diligence first: compression test dry, and possibly wet to see what results you get. See where valves are adjusted to currently, they could be all over the place. Or just pull the head, do a valve job and see what it results in.
Personally, I'd do some preliminary tests first, especially since it doesn't seem you're well versed in head reclamation, correct?
AND, if you don't do tests first, you have nothing to compare to when you've done the valve job. PLUS, a 1954 tractor may have stuck rings, or cracked or broken rings too. You won't know until you put it back together. AND, tightening the top end doesn't always bode well if you don't know the condition of the lower end - all data available via testing the engine condition prior to any teardown. JMHO, having owned and run a foreign auto repair shop for nearly a decade, in one of my prior lives.:confused3:

 

[ericm979]

If you remove the head I'd just take it to a machine shop and have them remove the valves and replace them and/or or cut the seats as needed. Also deck the head to make it flat if it's not. And check the guides and seals.

But like everyone says do the compression check first. Do wet and dry test so you can see the condition of the rings vs valves.

 

[luke1782178]

From reading this the first time, it sounds like the smoke he is referring to wasnt coming from the exhaust which would make it sound like a headgasket, but it sounds more like its coming from the breather on top of the valve cover and being blown by the radiator fan which would indicate excessive blowby, possibly from a bad bearing

 

[boggen]

low rpms = less constant clatter/knock.
higher rpms = more constant clatter/knock. and louder noise.

at very end of video (20 seconds). kinda pointing around the distributor area. that is were i saw smoke. i never saw it come from the other side. there was to much wind already from storm front moving in. and the smoke was blowing back towards me. (radiator fan) blowing it back towards me. i could not tell if it was directly on front of engine. or coming out the side just in front of the distributor area. but it was coming out straight out.

smoke looked like it was "blown out" like someone blowing cigarette smoke directly out of there mouth, in a stream.

=======
compression test kit order

 

[boggen]

compression kit arrived today. hoping next day or 2 get to the tractor and test things out.

saw UPS truck down the road at neighbors house, and was just about to pull truck/trailer around to block driveway to load up some limbs. figure would pull down by road and wave driver down, so he didn't get jammed up. glad i did, my package got delivered to the neighbors. and he was pedal to the metal trying to fly pass me, till he realize i was trying to get him to stop, he went and go it, and delivered it to me. all good.

 

[boggen]

front of engine
1 cylinder - dry 50PSI - wet 75 PSI
2 cylinder - dry 49PSI - wet 80 PSI
3 cylinder - dry 50PSI - wet 80 PSI
4 cylinder - dry 50PSI - wet 80 PSI
rear of engine

during the wet test, i noticed a puff of "oil" coming out were i saw smoke originally. on the 1 cylinder spark plug.

tried tighten it down with the rubber o-ring that was on the test end, and still kept getting oil puffs shooting out.

i was also getting oil puffs shooting out around the "quick connect" during the wet tests.

as i was finger tightening the spark plugs (putting back in so nothing gets into the cylinders. the spark plug on 1st cylinder stopped. took spark plug out, and had a little piece of metal, like a broken off #2 pencil lead, just a little thing. hung up on the threads. removed it and spark plug finger tighten like normal.

the little metal washer that comes with the new spark plugs and was on old ones. looks good as in a full seal when they were installed initially. and nothing missing from the spark plugs or washers. so looks like i may need to dig into the engine to find out were the metal is coming from.

===========
will dig out manual later on, if memory serves it states what the compression should be for engine. (guessing i am messing something up on compression test, seems low compared to videos watched on youtube)

 

[Stimw]

A lot of the older engines only had as low as 6-1 compression ratios.
The better information is that they are pretty even.

 

[strum456]

I have an Allis Chalmers C. It's main job is taking up shed space. Today I thought I'd use it to rake hay since I wasn't in a hurry. As soon as it started, it sounded like your video. If I had to guess with mine, I'd say a piston skirt broke off. It is still running on all 4 cylinders, as is yours. Neither sound like connecting rod knock to me. If a rocker arm broke, we'd be down a cylinder. So, I'm going with a piston skirt. I'll let you know when I tear mine down.

 

[Coyote machine]

Test results seem good; that is not any real huge variation. Both dry and wet. I wouldn't worry about that aspect now that you have some results to go by, even if they're not at or close to specs.
I might try putting some Marvel Mystery oil, or Seafoam in each cylinder via the spark plug holes and let it sit for a while and then start it up and see what is going on. Don't rev it up, just let it run at idle and see if the 'noise' is still apparent. If something like a ring broke, for instance, you may notice some changes from 'lubing' the cylinders with either product.
Report back results.
If nothing changes, you could then drop the oil into a clean pan and see what's present. if something's broken you may find pieces, or visible signs of oil discoloration, etc.
After that, depending how difficult, and if you find particles, pieces, etc. you might be able to drop the oil pan to inspect the lower end and see if there are visible signs of damage. After that, if no signs, you can go ahead and pull the head to inspect and repair as needed.

 

[strum456]

I took the valve cover off of my C yesterday. I was lucky that the engine happened to stop in the right position, so I could see that one of the valves was sticking. The valve wasn't completely stuck. I think it was only sticking when cold and now it doesn't stick at all. I just happened to find a push rod that was way too loose. My theory that the push rod was causing all the clatter because the valve wasn't following it closed quickly enough to keep it tight. I'll let you know if anything changes.

 

[boggen]

see about running a full sea foam treatment through the engine tomorrow, oil and gas combo doing. and see what happens. i remember something about carbon build up in the intake/exhaust manifold (single piece), and causing some issues. it been to many years and first bought tractor and dealing with some oil filters and hydraulic oil for it, that it came about from a local dealer.

if anything might help reduce some of the hand cleaning of the parts when i tear it down.

 

[rrrkkk]

I agree there is a lot of snake oil out there but SeaFoam is a legit product. Now mostly small engines have carburetors with plastic or pot metal jets and needle and seats can't be removed. Sea Foam is the only remedy I have found to clear these problems.

 

[boggen]

she made white smoke, and knock still there. will drain oil over couple days and begin tearing into her. still some other projects higher on the todo list.

already bought lapping tool, lapping compound, spring remover.

 

[strum456]

I ran my C for a couple hours yesterday without issue. So, it had to be a stuck valve that was causing all the clatter. If yours is making noise consistently, it should be pretty easy to verify or eliminated the valves as the problem if you run it with the valve cover removed.

 

[boggen]

seafoam turned the engine oil pitch black for sure. drained the oil, and noticed something, stuck finger up inside oil drain hole, and finger came off with a lot of metal shavings.


the metal shavings is something new in the oil since i really looked at things. when i put in a new clutch and split tractor, i did a pretty good clean up of tractor then. along with new pto rear end i put on i went over tractor thoroughly and there was no shavings in engine oil.

the coolant and engine oil looks like they never mixed. so going to assume no actual leak in a gasket or like.

=================
poped the cover over the rocker arms.

--connecting rods that have slack in them
1 - no slack
2 - yes slack
3 - yes slack
4 - no slack
5 - yes slack
6 - no slack
7 - yes slack
8 - yes slack
front of engine
and the very front rocker looks like it needs another washer to tighten it up some.

the rockers to springs. the rockers non of them are perfectly centered, and off just a little bit

i noticed a little bit of "crud" built up on the springs. other wise everything looks clean for valves/rockers etc.. kinda wondering seafoam cleaned up most of it. from way crud built up on the springs.

=============
letting the final little drips from oil pan drain out, along with coolant rain out.

slowly taking other stuff off, to take head off.

will get oil pan off hopefully later on tonight for inspection.