Engine will not turn over. Where to start?

   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #51  
Guys I dont know nothing about engines to speak of I understand the terms and know what you are saying but that is about it. The number of engines I have rebuilt can be counterd on one hand. If my parents would have had more money when I was growing up I would not even be able to have had that positive experience. Now that I have said that I have a question. Would not which bearing goes first have to do with the amount of wear on a bearing. I believe that bearings do not wear at exactly the same rate for whatever reason. If you had a bearing with more wear it would be a looser fit so wouldnt the bearing that had the least wear be more likely to be the one that seizes up due to heat expanding it and making it tighter first. Or do i have it backwards or does it even matter as far as wear goes ?
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #52  
cp1969 said:
That's contrary to my experience, and would seem to be a violation of the laws of fluid dynamics. Not saying you didn't experience what you did, but I have seen spun bearings on #1 cylinder when the oil pump fed up through rear main cap. If what you're saying is universally true, then #4 should have bit the dust first.

Well I know bupkus about fluid dynamics but I worked for a large German diesel manufactor that had to know what was going on in their engines to process the warranty claims. So they tested a lot of things. They also knew what cylinder would burn up first when the engine was overheated. All sorts of fun stuff they taught me because while working for the OEM dealer I was the first one to document the possible failures.

Back to fluid dynamics (that's cool to say :D), If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Rob
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #53  
Back to fluid dynamics (that's cool to say :D), If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Rob[/QUOTE]

So if you had a hole in the middle of the straw( pickup tube) you would have Pepsi (oil) on the ends but none in the middle? causing the center bearings to lock first? I think I might agree with it also being possible that the bearing with the tightest fit would lock first. If one of the bearings had some play, wouldnt that be full of oil? and if not wouldnt the tightest bearing cause the most friction, there by the most heat, there by getting hotter and tighter until it fuses together? or would the cyl with the tightest compression decide wich one locked first? :confused: :confused: :)
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #54  
If I'm sucking a coke through a straw and run out of coke, I may still have coke at my mouth but the bottom of the straw is empty. And if I'm blowing air into the straw, I can move the coke at the oppisite end of the straw. So in both cases the area closest to the supply is dry first. No way I invented this stuff...the engineers I guess did.

Right.........
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #55  
His oil pump could feed the oil straight into an oil galley first, then through out the rest of the engine giving equal pressure and flow to all mains, rods and camshaft etc. etc. I have found 354.4 Perkins run out of oil with one seized main or rod at either end. I guess some of those engines did not listen to the engineer"s.:eek: :D :D
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #56  
Engineers live mostly in the hypothetical world, where as the mechanic / technician live in the real world. I often wonder if the engineers that design some of these items ever held a wrench in their hand, because if they did, they would design it to be serviced a lot easier in the real world. :D
Dusty
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #57  
If engineers did not keep trying to reinvent the wheel I wouldn't have a job.
 
   / Engine will not turn over. Where to start? #58  
firemanpat2910 said:
So if you had a hole in the middle of the straw( pickup tube) you would have Pepsi (oil) on the ends but none in the middle? causing the center bearings to lock first? I think I might agree with it also being possible that the bearing with the tightest fit would lock first. If one of the bearings had some play, wouldnt that be full of oil? and if not wouldnt the tightest bearing cause the most friction, there by the most heat, there by getting hotter and tighter until it fuses together? or would the cyl with the tightest compression decide wich one locked first? :confused: :confused: :)

I guess unless you've rebuilt over 100 engines it's hard to understand. In the engines I mainly worked on #2 was the case. The reason why it was number 2 because of the oil flow...straight from the oil pump...to the filter. The filter bracket was on the side of the engine at #2 (these diesels the #1 was closest to the flywheel). So even though the oil entered the galley, the closest spot was #2. As the engine runs out of oil it will begin to pick up some and and oil....hehe like my straw....it'll keep pushing some oil that's left in the far ends of the galley. The oil that actually protects the bearings is microscopic. But just enough to work, also the clearances on the bearings is in the thousands. In the "worn out" engines I rebuilt, the wear was generally equally spread out. In a general failure, I guess it's just the luck of the draw as to which one fails first. But in certain failures things can point to the problem. If I overheated my 3 cylinder diesel in most cases the piston to go first would be #2. Because it's the only one that's surrounded by heat. It may not be 100% but in trials that was the one.

In your examples I'll give you my thoughts...the loose bearing would go first IMO. Why? Because We have to start with a control...and in this case we have to say that when new the engine was all within spec. If someone installed the bearing improperly or the wrong bearing (it happens), then human error is the cause. The loose bearing will have less oil pressure, possibly effecting the oil pressure as a whole if bad enough. The pounding IMO could eventually cause a failure. I happen to be cheating on this one. My BIL just rebuilt the bottom end on his JD350 dozer. He said all he had was a standard bearing and the crank had been cut .010. So the bearing was .010 to small. The dozer ran for about 300 feet and placed a nice size hole in the block.

In the case of a piston. Actually the only friction in the cylinder wall is the rings. More wear the less friction. There is contact on top if there is a lot of carbon buildup. If the skirt of the piston ever touches the wall it's over in seconds. Remember the microscopic film of oil also protects the skirt. Also in the diesels I've rebuilt (not the gassers...interesting), the skirt is knurled (think knurled, hair thickness lines cut in it..don't know what they call it). My guess is this reduces surface area and traps oil. So what causes piston failure, rings break, ring lands give way (I hate ether), overheating causes oil breakdown. I have seen pistons gaulded and the lower end ok. Usually overheating. In most of my cases it was because the fuel pump was set for intermitting load but ended up running at a continous load. Melted the skirt.

In old engines that fail it's a crapshoot. Like I've seen in older engined the oil pump drive gear strip out. So in this case the oil flow suddenly stops. Maybe gravity feeds some parts longer than others. So maybe it's number 2 that goes first. But in the end the mechanic discoverys the problem to be the oil pump, so whether number 2 or number 6, the problem is the oil pump gear.

I'm still very interested as to what happened in this case. Another chapter to add to the book on possible problems. If the engine won't turn in either direction then something is siezed or broke and locked into place.

Pictures are always cool to.
 

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