EPA approval??

circleTfarm · Dec 1, 2005

I was wondering what is so special of EPA approval on the chinese tractors?? if Fonton,Kama and others are getting there tractors (large or small) into the USA ,is that not just a plus for us consumers here??I saw a 80 hp Kama for sale on Ebay yesterday, It peaked my intrest /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif, I never knew that there was a Kama made thet large. who cares if it's EPA approved I don't all i worry about is that I get a Quality tractor AT a great price .. so whats the big deal with the EPA?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Soundguy · Dec 1, 2005

import restrictions

greg_g · Dec 1, 2005

To a buyer like you, it means nothing. To the importer and/or broker, it means everything. If it's not EPA approved or exempted, they can't bring it into the country. If they can't bring it into the country, they can't sell it to you.

So if it's already IN America when you buy it, EPA restrictions are a non-issue to (most) buyers.

//greg//

EFC · Dec 1, 2005

It means nothing to the buyer. All tractors/off-road equipment has to meat EPA standards to be imported. The penalty is 10 years in prison and 25000.00 fine per unit. The dealers that are bringing in tractors over 28hp right now are just taking the chance they wont get caught. After Jan 1 of 2006 there are no exemptions left so all tractors regardless of hp must meet teir l, Teir ll is next then teir lll.

My partner before he passed away spent many months working with the EPA in Washington DC interpreting the law. His sole job was to figure out how we could get these tractors EPA certified.

When the EPA decided to require off-road diesels to meet emissions requirements they did it over a 7 year period to give time for the manufacturers to develop the diesel technology to do it. It started with large hp models and each year gets closer to zero hp. Large importers like john Deere were given extra exemptions that said for every so many EPA engines they could sell non EPA engines. All the exemptions end this year though.

We worked for a year to get two engine models over 50hp to meat the EPA teir l standards (the easiest of the three tiers). Both were utter failures. It wasn’t that we couldn’t get the emissions down (we had to add a turbo to do it) we just couldn’t get the engines to run long enough to finish the 5000 hour run time requirement. 2500 to 3000 hours was all we could get before they puked. At a cost of $25,000.00 dollars a test and after six engines (3 in each hp range) we were done trying. We realized that if China didn’t buy a real engine they were never going to meet teir l let alone teir ll or lll.

We told China that we had failed to get the EPA certification and that we were talking with 3 parties like Yanmar about providing engines to put in their tractors. The very next day I received an EPA certificate (a poorly made obviously fake) from China in my Email. They followed up by sending me a hard copy a week later. I could have made a more official looking document with kiddies scissors and some paste. It was obvious it was not legit. We stopped importing the end of that year when the over 28hp restrictions kicked in. Since then I have seen two dozen different attempts at making the same fake document look more official. I still talk with my partners friend at the EPA and they know the documents are fake. Next year the EPA plans to crack down hard on imports of non EPA compliant tractors the sad part is that I know companies like Farm Pro or Northern wont get busted. It will be some mom and pop outfit that import a few tractors here and there who will be facing devastation and real prison time.

Buck

n4807g · Dec 1, 2005

Why did you go through the expense of trying to certify the engine? Ask the engine manufacturer to provide the certificate # and verify that the EPA certified the engine ?????

So your suggesting that a company will be able to illegally import a product and no one will care?

EFC · Dec 1, 2005

5 years ago the Chinese tractor industry was a bit different than it is now. Asking why I didn’t just ask for an EPA # is a lot like asking why the settlers in the early 1800's rode wagons west instead of just flying in a plane.

Power steering was a revolutionary concept so getting the Chinese to seriously consider the EPA laws was downright impossible. They didn’t believe us when we said that the EPA regulations were serious and would stop the importation of their tractors completely. We were not the only importers that were testing engines trying to get certified. It is easy for China to forge tests and documents because they are immune from prosecution. We had to do everything by the book or risk prosecution.

I am not suggesting anything. It is a fact that tractors are coming in right now illegally. Since there are some exemptions on the books there are loopholes in the law that makes it hard for the EPA to prosecute, They are also extremely shorthanded. The office we deal with only has two people that even know where to find the law let alone enforce it. After this year though there is no mistake. I have talked with many people that have had their containers seized and sent back to china or were forced to destroy the tractors at their expense.

I wouldn’t have stopped selling 200 units a year if I thought there was a legal way to do it. I am way to young to go to jail.

Buck

circleTfarm · Dec 1, 2005

so what your saying is that you might be able to get one of the restricted units in 06 . ifso who gets in trouble.3 or 4 months after you buy it ? if EPA cracks down on the dealer you bought your tractor from, can they go through the company records and find out who purchased one of these restricted units and either confiscate it? or make you destroy it ? or make you do jail time for bying it? do they(EPA) have that kind of power?

gunslinger101 · Dec 1, 2005

( so what your saying is that you might be able to get one of the restricted units in 06 . if so who gets in trouble.3 or 4 months after you buy it ? if EPA cracks down on the dealer you bought your tractor from, can they go through the company records and find out who purchased one of these restricted units and either confiscate it? or make you destroy it ? or make you do jail time for bying it? do they(EPA) have that kind of power? )

The dealer would probably get hit hard by the law, after all how many dealers are going to tell you the EPA cert. is bogus. The EPA knows this, they won't go after you as the buyer, they would only get one guy one tractor, if they hit a dealer they get more tractors and a guy with money to spend it on legal fees and fines. So this way they get funds to bust the next dealer. The Feds like money.

3RRL · Dec 1, 2005

( I saw a 80 hp Kama for sale on Ebay yesterday)

circleTfarm-
Could you send me a link to that ebay add for the 80HP KAMA, please? Send a PM if you like.
Thanks,

circleTfarm · Dec 1, 2005

sorry everyone, I"m not that computer literate don't know how to send link but heres the ebay item# 7567519184 /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif hopes this helps..

bluechip · Dec 2, 2005

Good looking tractor at a good price. There are precious few parts for this tractor in the USA. Terraplane imported a handfull of these several years ago, and there may be a few more that have slipped in under the radar (probably has an engine manufacture date of 1997) . These low quantities mean parts will be very scarce and will be slow to get from China. We can probably get them from China special order shipped in our containers of 25 and 35HP EPA certifed tractors. The Farm Pro/foton will give you air conditioning in addition to the heat, but the features of this KAMA are impressive for the money. Too bad we can't import these....

California · Dec 2, 2005

Link: ebay auction KAMA 80 hp

joerocker · Dec 2, 2005

( It wasn’t that we couldn’t get the emissions down (we had to add a turbo to do it) we just couldn’t get the engines to run long enough to finish the 5000 hour run time requirement. 2500 to 3000 hours was all we could get before they puked.
)

What does THIS mean? It seems to me that our Chinese made tractors are going to die in 2000-3000 hours... That's NOT a comforting thing to know...

EFC · Dec 2, 2005

CircleTfarm

You are in no danger of being prosecuted. The dealer is the one breaking the law. It is not illegal to own a non EPA compliant engine it is just illegal to import it.

Buck

3RRL · Dec 2, 2005

Man, that looks like some kinda tractor for the money! Great features too. Makes my KAMA look spartan.
Chip....
You really should try to get these. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'd consider trading mine in for one of them.

RonMar · Dec 2, 2005

( What does THIS mean? It seems to me that our Chinese made tractors are going to die in 2000-3000 hours... That's NOT a comforting thing to know...)

I would say that to meet an EPA emissions specification, they had to increase the combustion efficiency and temperature to more fully combust the fuel burned and reduce the percentage of harmfull emissions. Basically they needed more bang out of each firing cycle with the same ammount of fuel. You could do this by increasing the compression ratio but that requires some fairly major internal mods. The same thing can be accomplished without internal mods through externally raising the compression ratio(turbo or blower) and adjusting the fuel deliver(different injectors and pump adjustment). I am guessing they went this route as it would have been the easiest/cheapest to accomplish on a per engine basis without an entire engine re-design.

It sounds like The basic engine design probably wasn't designed to handle the added stresses this imposed(higher chamber pressures and temps).

Used as designed, the engine should last a long time, it will just have a dirtier exhaust(also as designed).

California · Dec 2, 2005

( I would say that to meet an EPA emissions specification, they had to increase the combustion efficiency and temperature to more fully combust the fuel burned and reduce the percentage of harmfull emissions. )

Has anyone (besides obviously Buck) put one on a dyno to see if real output equals nameplate hp?

circleTfarm · Dec 2, 2005

does anyone know if china is going to comply? If we can't get these types of tractors in the USA (can't import per EPA)US dealers not selling in 06, will our market share of the chinese tractor hurt china enough that they will comply?

EFC · Dec 2, 2005

Bingo Ron, your right on the nose. Also the engines had to run at rated RPM during the test. So basically wide open for 208 days straight.

That was just to meet Teir l. Teir ll requirements were going to be impossible to achieve. I talked with an engineer at Yanmar and even they were struggling to meet Teir ll in some hp classes. I asked him about Teir lll and he said at that level it will be impossible to achieve without a computer management system in conjunction with milti firing electronically controlled injection pumps. I don’t see China getting to that level in my lifetime they will have to outsource engines.

Buck