Experiencing Intermittent Shut-down

[PJSprog]

Intermittent stuff is the worst.

 

[k0ua]

Just to let everyone know, I used the 4105 on Monday to chain harrow a large paddock (after shifting the horses). As before, I was in Low with the revs just a titch below 2000.

The bloody thing ran perfectly. No shutdowns. I haven't yet added the Penzoil diesel cleaner to the tank.

Grrrrr! :muttering:

That's maddening isn't it? It would be much better if the darn thing would just shut down and stay dead until you tore into it and found something.

They say that He77 for a technician is a room full of intermittent problems to repair. Through the years I have fixed my share of them, but it is never fun.

 

[Wagtail]

Update... of sorts. It's been difficult to pin down symptoms because I don't use my tractor daily or for long hours around my property. The reason that I have a 41hp tractor on a small 6 acres is for handling round bales for my two horses, other than that the most it's used for is chain harrowing the paddocks.

Well it's haying season! I help friends in Pyengana bring in the baled rounds and it's usually an intense 6-7 day operation to get them in from the fields and into sheds. My job is to fetch the rounds, arrange them for loading onto the lorry and then load them. I'll also rake if required.

And, of course, the intermittent shut down is occurring... but now, due to the longer hours of usage, a 'symptom pattern' is emerging.

The tractor (an HST) starts beautifully first thing, every day. It runs great too... running at 2000 revs, mostly in 4WD in the paddocks, forking the round bales and such... for around an hour to an hour and a half. Then the first shut down occurs. Regular routine for a re-start - although the engine can take 5-6 seconds (a long time if you really count-off the seconds) for the engine to catch and go.

Then I'm usually good for another half Hour 'till the next occurrence. Then it happens more & more often. The engine always re-starts and I can always get back to work but when it gets to the point of every 5 to 10 minutes it's bloody frustrating.

I've eliminated everything that I can think of (including the seat switch). It definitely [maybe?] has to be a gradual heat problem or fault that is shutting down the engine. The engine needs to be "cranked" for a period of time before it restarts, then operates as if nothing had happened. Fresh fuel is added daily. All fluid levels are good. The only thing I haven't done is a coolant flush... but the temperature gauge is steady in the first quarter of green.

I'm beginning to suspect that I've got a dodgy/shonky fuel pump.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Sounds like it's a heat related fuel issue. Could be the fuel pump or lines. Have you tried cracking the fuel bleeder screw open when it quits running? If it cranks up you are getting air in the system some way.

 

[TnAndy]

Be surprised if it's heat related.

Has the tractor got a primary fuel booster pump ?

Turn the key to 'on', not starting and listen for a little 'tick-tick-tick' of the pump. Usually located near the fuel tank.

I had a Mitsubishi dozer with one (as well as my current Yanmar), and it had a filter built into the pump....without looking at a parts breakdown, you wouldn't even know it was there....plus the pump is located under the floor board.

Anyway, dozer suffered same symptoms....run a while, then shut almost down (was getting enough fuel to idle)....finally found that filter, which of course was clogged (crap in the tank), and that did the trick.

SO, if you have that kind of pump...check the pump.....as soon as the tractor dies, LEAVE THE KEY ON, and you should hear the pump. Now pull a hose off forward of the pump and see if you're getting good fuel flow.

Yes....probably something else.

No....pump isn't working good, pump is clogged (hunt filter), tank/line to pump has an obstruction.

START with this first before trying to over think this......

 

[Wagtail]

Be surprised if it's heat related.

Has the tractor got a primary fuel booster pump ?

Turn the key to 'on', not starting and listen for a little 'tick-tick-tick' of the pump. Usually located near the fuel tank.

I had a Mitsubishi dozer with one (as well as my current Yanmar), and it had a filter built into the pump....without looking at a parts breakdown, you wouldn't even know it was there....plus the pump is located under the floor board.

Anyway, dozer suffered same symptoms....run a while, then shut almost down (was getting enough fuel to idle)....finally found that filter, which of course was clogged (crap in the tank), and that did the trick.

SO, if you have that kind of pump...check the pump.....as soon as the tractor dies, LEAVE THE KEY ON, and you should hear the pump. Now pull a hose off forward of the pump and see if you're getting good fuel flow.

Yes....probably something else.

No....pump isn't working good, pump is clogged (hunt filter), tank/line to pump has an obstruction.

START with this first before trying to over think this......

Yes, I believe so. I'll check it today - without wearing my ear-defenders.

And thanks for the advice on not 'over thinking'. This is why I've come to TBN with the problem as another 'set of eyes' may spot something I haven't considered.

 

[Wagtail]

Further update, taking TnAndy's advice...

The initial, first start of the morning, I did as advised and listened with the key to 'on'. Yes, a noticeable 'tick-tick-tick' of the pump. I then started the tractor and (as usual) the tractor ran great. I then proceeded to do today's task which was to fetch rounds and put them into a storage shed. It took about 3/4s of an hour before the first shut-down occurred.

So, key to 'off' - revs down - neutral - foot on brake - ear defenders off - key to 'on' and listen. I could barely hear the 'tick-tick-tick'. It was there, but almost a "chitter" and very faint. The engine started again (thank goodness I've got a great battery & starter!) and took the almost standard 5 to 6 seconds to fire up = back to work.

The shut-downs increased in frequency throughout the day. It doesn't matter what I'm doing; loading, picking up a bale, travelling with a bale, travelling without a bale, idling.

In case you good people are wondering why I haven't called my dealership yet... 1) I want to give them the best information possible prior to them coming out, and 2) there's no mobile phone reception in Pyengana and by the time I get home it's passed their operating hours and, because it's haying season, practically every ones tractor is flat-out in the entire State. The JD mobile service utes are equally flat-out.

Plus, it's Christmas Eve tomorrow... the last day to get the hay that's been cut in. (a BUMPER crop this year) I'll just have to wait until next week.

 

[pathunt]

When this happened, I had to put an inline filter between the fuel tank and the fuel petcock. Seems that without the inline filter all kinds of little debris get caught in the petcock screen before it goes to the lift pump and produce intermittent shutdowns. No problem after the last time I cleaned the petcock filter and installed the inline filter.

 

[CalG]

Further update, taking TnAndy's advice...

The initial, first start of the morning, I did as advised and listened with the key to 'on'. Yes, a noticeable 'tick-tick-tick' of the pump. I then started the tractor and (as usual) the tractor ran great. I then proceeded to do today's task which was to fetch rounds and put them into a storage shed. It took about 3/4s of an hour before the first shut-down occurred.

So, key to 'off' - revs down - neutral - foot on brake - ear defenders off - key to 'on' and listen. I could barely hear the 'tick-tick-tick'. It was there, but almost a "chitter" and very faint. The engine started again (thank goodness I've got a great battery & starter!) and took the almost standard 5 to 6 seconds to fire up = back to work.

The shut-downs increased in frequency throughout the day. It doesn't matter what I'm doing; loading, picking up a bale, travelling with a bale, travelling without a bale, idling.

In case you good people are wondering why I haven't called my dealership yet... 1) I want to give them the best information possible prior to them coming out, and 2) there's no mobile phone reception in Pyengana and by the time I get home it's passed their operating hours and, because it's haying season, practically every ones tractor is flat-out in the entire State. The JD mobile service utes are equally flat-out.

Plus, it's Christmas Eve tomorrow... the last day to get the hay that's been cut in. (a BUMPER crop this year) I'll just have to wait until next week.

It sure sounds like the fuel cut off solenoid controller acting up.
If your fuel system is like the one on the Mistubishi 4KF The controller sends a timed duration 12V to the solenoid that CLOSES the fuel supply. Then after a few seconds, the circuit is broken again to the normally open condition.

Try just disconnecting the fuel shut off solenoid electrical and use the manual fuel shut off lever to stop the engine when you want. If the solenoid is a two wire device, It is likely the controller is the fault. (could be the key switch though ;-)
If the solenoid is three wire, the trouble may still be the controller, but the fuel delivery will not flow with the solenoid disconnected.

 

[TnAndy]

Further update, taking TnAndy's advice...

Nope.....I specifically said: "as soon as the tractor dies, LEAVE THE KEY ON, and you should hear the pump. Now pull a hose off forward of the pump and see if you're getting good fuel flow."

IF you have a tank outlet tank obstruction, such as I had with the 'bug-in-the-tank', leaving the key ON when it dies keeps that pump running.....pulling a hose off at that point, you'll see just a dribble of fuel. The vacuum pull by the pump trying to get fuel will keep whatever is in the tank RIGHT OVER THE FUEL OUTLET. In my case, I could actually see the sides of the plastic fuel filter bowl sucking inward also as that pump tried to get fuel.

What happens, I suspect, if you turn the key off, then on again and the tractor starts is enough fuel has dribbled out and made it's way forward to the injector pump to let the tractor start again. You throw it in gear then, and whatever is in the tank floats off the fuel outlet UNTIL THE NEXT TIME IT FLOAT BACK AROUND OVER IT AND YOU STOP AGAIN.

Your description:

" could barely hear the 'tick-tick-tick'. It was there, but almost a "chitter" and very faint. The engine started again (thank goodness I've got a great battery & starter!) and took the almost standard 5 to 6 seconds to fire up = back to work."

is exactly what happens.....the pump sounds different because of blocked flow, it takes it 5-6 seconds to build up enough fuel for the injector pump to HAVE something to pump, then engine starts....jiggling whatever is floating around in the tank to float away to come back later.

The dealer thought fuel solenoid on mine too...changed it TWICE....before it managed to die while sitting in their shop (after I'd taken it back home, 'fixed' and returned it the same day) When it died, we're standing in the back looking at it, the mechanic says "man....look at that fuel bowl" (which is located under the left rear fender inboard of the tire)....it was bowing inward as the booster pump tried to suck fuel.

He immediately pulled the hose off the tank bottom going to the fuel bowl, and just a dribble of fuel came out. He stuck a long, skinny screwdriver up the tank outlet and got hosed with fuel as whatever it was ( a bug, wrapped in some plastic, spiral drill shavings from drilling the tank FOR the outlet fitting) moved aside and fuel RAN. Removed the tank and dumped it upside down thru a cloth, and caught the problem.

The NEXT time it happened, about 2 years later, I knew what to look for. Rather than remove the tank, I bought a cheap, lighted inspection camera with a 3' extension (Rigid Brand, Home Depot), and LOOKED IN THE TANK for myself....yep....there floated a dirt daubber wasp right over the outlet. Reached in with a long 'grabber' kinda tongs, pulled it out, and no more problem.


Now this may, or may not, be your issue......But I wouldn't go one step farther until I was dead sure I had good fuel flow.....and I've told you how to determine that.

Having had this happen to me twice now on the same tractor, once at 50-60hrs, then two years later, PLUS my experience with that Mitsubishi dozer, I'm inclined to look for the simple stuff FIRST.

>FUEL FLOW<

Until you are 100% positive you have proper flow, don't go looking for other trouble spots and trying to over think the problem.


Merry Christmas, by the way, down under !