Favorite handgun caliber?

Dargo · Nov 10, 2005

( There isn't a qualified welder on the planet that didn't gain his skills from training and education. )

Uh, off the topic but, yes there is. I passed the AWS (American Welding Society) welding test (certification by a CWI) in arc, MIG, and TIG welding and, I've had no training or education in welding. I bought the machines, read the manuals, and practiced myself. I no longer have a valid certification card because I do not weld professionally and, therefore, have not kept up with my certification maintenance forms that are required every six months.

Along the same thought, I have to also admit that if I don't shoot a particular firearm with some frequency, my proficiency with that weapon degrades. At least for me, I do have to practice to retain my shooting skills. And, yes, I have shot in some competitions; IPSC, rattle battle's (rifle competitions), and bowling pin shoots. Sorry, but I've never gotten into the "cowboy" competitions; but I was trained by the lady who was a 4 time Texas open champion. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif So, no, I am not a certified "expert" marksman, but I would rate myself as considerably better than the average shooter.

YanmarFever · Nov 10, 2005

Dargo,
Very well put, (use it or lose it)

dmccarty · Nov 10, 2005

Here is some interesting info from FBI Miami Shootout Summary .

The FBI Miami Shoot out was firefight between the FBI and two very bad dudes in 4/11/1986. The fire fight lasted about four minutes. At the end of four minutes the two bad guys were dead. Two agents were killed, five were seriously wounded, another was injured and one was unhurt. The incident led the FBI to use the 10mm which was eventually downloaded into a FBI Light 10mm which in turn led to the .40.

The weapons used and round fired:
Bad Guys
Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun (1 round #6 shot fired). (Bad Guy 1)
Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine (at least 42 rounds fired), (Bad Guy 2)

S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired),

Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired).

Good Guys
McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired),
.357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Grogan: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (9 rounds fired).
Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired).
Risner: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (13-14 rounds fired?),
S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver (1 round .38 Special +P fired).
Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 4 inch barrel (12 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Hanlon: S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

In the first 60 seconds of the fight Bad Guy Matix was hit numerous times trying to get out of a car. Two shot were head shots that did not penetrate his brain but left him seriously wounded and knocked out. He had fatal wounds due to blood vessel hits that caused him to loose 1 liter of blood in 2-3 minutes.

The second bad guy was hit at about the 60 second mark climbing out of a car window. His first wound was a 9mm that paralized one arm, collapsed a lung and stopped just short of his heart. This was a fatal wound that caused him loose 1.3 liters of blood. With this fatal wound the firefight continued for another three minutes in which this Bad Guy killed two agents and it looks like wounded the other five.

Bad Guy number one eventually regains counciousness and gets into a second car. Bad Guy number two follows. Both are finally stopped by agent Mireles who fired six rounds and had five hits. Mireles did this with an arm that is crippled. He used 357 with .38+ rounds.

The point of this, or at least one of them, is that even with proper shot placement the bad guys can keep on coming. These guys where not normal though. NO drugs were in their system. The FBI had good weapons and ammo. They used them well. They had some things go wrong some of which were their fault. But even with things going wrong the bad guys were hit and hit hard but still kept on going.

My two cents is that if the agents had had rifles they would have ended the fight at around the 60 second mark. BUT they did have shotguns but they were not used at first and they had 00 buckshot. IF they had used the shotguns up front my guess is that the fight would have ended at 60 seconds especially if they had had slugs. But that is hindsight and you look at these things to learn not critize.

Later,
Dan

EddieWalker · Nov 10, 2005

Dargo,

You bring up a very valid point. Some people have a natural ability to do certain things. Their tallent is amazing to see, and some of the very best at what they do have never taken a class or been trained. If I remember correctly, Annie Oakly taught herself to shoot, and was able to shoot one inch wood blocks out of the air with a pistol while performing for the Wild Bill Cody show.

Since Ernie wont answer a single one of my questions, I'm unaware if he's a good shot or not. All I know is he likes to shoot an aweful lot of rounds.

At 650 rounds every other day, or 7,000 rounds a month, I'm obviously not at his level. Both financially and mentally. I've never heard of competive shootes who can keep up with him.

Shooting until he can't hold the weapon any more is also well beyond my skills. When I get tired, I lose the ability to maintain my sight picture and accurately place my rounds.

My hat is off to you Mr. Ernie, you are by far the better man.

The only reason I even brought any of this up is out of pure admiration at your abilities, physical stamina, mental awareness, and financial recourses.

It's a pleasure to read your replies and I look forward to your continued posts on this topic, as well as others.

Thank you,
Eddie

RedRocker · Nov 10, 2005

You wonder why the FBI guys didn't have 357 rounds in their 357's. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif What's the point of lugging around a bigger gun and down loading it? In any situation where you have a choice, a long gun is a much better choice than a pistol.

dmccarty · Nov 10, 2005

RedRocker,

Well a firearm with a big recoil is going to take longer to recover from the first shot and make a second. A lighter load will allow quicker shots. And its a moot point in this situation. The second bad guy was hit with a 9mm that was fatal. I just did not stop the bad guy. The 9mm was not downloaded. Ironically what DID finally stop them was the 38+ in the 357.

I think there is an argument that MAYBE a 357 round or something as hot, hitting the second bad guy in the same path as the 9mm would have brought him down. But from what I have read, even a hit to the heart is not a definative show stopper. Yes the bad guy will die but he has 15-20 seconds before the lights go out and he goes down. 15-20 seconds is a long time in a gunfight. And remember BOTH of these guys are walking and crawling around with multiple fatal wounds. My guess is that the FBI figured that the second bad guy would have been stopped if he had been hit with something more than a 9mm. Thus they adopted a 10mm. My second guess is that they did not go with a 357 since they wanted more rounds than a wheel gun.

Later,
Dan

Bird · Nov 10, 2005

( You wonder why the FBI guys didn't have 357 rounds in their 357's )

Now I'm not going to say for sure, but with my years of experience, as well as having taken the FBI pistol course at Quantico, I do have some ideas. #1 might be because some law enforcement officers like the idea of the more powerful gun (advertising works on cops just as it does on other folks /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif), but at the same time do not want to have a bullet penetrate beyond what they are shooting at, and #2 might be departmental regulations, ammo cost, and/or an inability to shoot the required qualifying rounds with the more powerful ammo.

You know I started in law enforcement back in the days when an officer did not have to shoot well enough to qualify. The head instructor at the police academy said that if you could not shoot a score of 70 or better on the pistol course, that he would recommend that you go to the range on your own time and practice until you could, because your life might depend on it someday. However, that was the one single course on which recruits were not required to pass. In those days, the veteran officers had to go to the range once a year and shoot 50 rounds, but they frequently did not do it with the weapon they carried on duty and they did not have to shoot any particular score. And Dallas officers were allowed to carry anything they wanted as long as it was Colt or S&W, .38 or larger. We had officers carrying .45 autos, .41s and even .44 magnum. No way anyone could shoot a .44 magnum fast enough to "qualify" on the timed course we used, and I suspect those who could do it with a .357 magnum are few and far between.

Now I don't know how often, or even where, FBI agents in the field had to shoot, but I do know that the FBI gave them 50 rounds of .38 ammo per month back then. So I guess you could say they were "expected" to practice that much. One of them gave me a few boxes of ammo because he was accumulating it instead of using it. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

In more recent years (still many years ago), the theory of "vicarious liability" came about. A person could sue the police chief, the department, the governmental agency, etc. for failure to adequately train personnel (as well as many other things). Lots of things changed. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif We had to "qualify" every 6 months with the particular weapon, make, model, AND serial number, as well as the specific type of ammo, that we would be carrying. And if you couldn't shoot a qualifying score, you couldn't carry a weapon, which meant desk duty and/or dismissal. That eliminated the magnum ammo and cannons some were carrying. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

r0GuE · Nov 10, 2005

45 Colt (45 Long Colt that is, not ACP)
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

RedRocker · Nov 10, 2005

I think you may be on to something there Bird, probably a qualifying thing. I've got two Smith 686's and rarely shoot 357's in them, mostly for the expense.
Dan, I'm hip to the shot recover thing being an old IPSC shooter. We shot pretty light loads in our 45's for competition, but carry wise is another story. I'm thinking they might have fared better with the big loads too.

HGM · Nov 10, 2005

My thinking here is that we have a trend here.

I understand downloading for practice, sometimes. I also agree with it.

I have a problem with the idea that we may be seeing the requirements lowered because some of the canidates may not be able to handle the heavier loads. I believe this may be the issue with the 9mm. I dont have a problem with anyone owning one or carrying one. However, if the law enforcement that is there to help protect me is carying them because they cannot handle a .45, it becomes an issue. I prefer someone who is capable of performing with enough firepower to do the job.

In Dan's summery of the shooting, the 9mm did not do the job. It would have left him to bleed out, but he could function. A .45(IMO) would have killed him with the first shot, provided the same placement.

I worry that too often todays police ar put in a life and death position with too light of weapon. Why didnt they have an AR-15 or Mini-14? A shotgun with 00 would be good for a drug bust in a house, but when the bad guys have semi auto rifles, you may as well send them with a sling shot. Again, in my opinion the 9mm is not a protection gun. It may be fun and cheap to shoot, but unless loaded with hot rounds and good projectiles, its too light. I believe the popularity comes from the 15rd mags that can make up for poor shooting. As Bird mentioned, alot of officers dont shoot like they should, mearly do what they have to to stay on the force. I would like to she it become manditory that they attend a reasonable amount of range hours each week. I'm sure some departments do this, but I can confidently say most do not. It would be for thier benefit as much as ours. Good cops die every year because of this.

Refering to the lightened gun for the capability impared. The Fulton County, Ga shooting this year happened when a dangerous inmate was being held, awaiting his hearing, by a 5' tall grandmother with a badge. He overpowered her and took her weapon(not sure of the caliber), he then proceded to kill several others in the courthouse. Then durring his escape he killed another officer before he was aprehended at his girlfriends house. The point here is that the Grandmother should not have been in that possition. She was not capable of restraining him. Could she have been there as a recipient of lighter standards to allow more women into the force?

I dont have a problem with female officers, or any other profession. I just expect that they can do the job they are hired for, be it a cop, fireman, pilot, etc... If they cannot fire a heavy enough caliber round to do the job, dont lower the standards...

Just my opinion of course. I think it makes sence, unfortunatly common sence isnt so common anymore, as we cant hurt anyones feelings by telling them the are incompetant.