FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked?

   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #71  
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #72  
Just came in from blowing 7 inches of soft snow cause it is just above freezing +1 C ( 33 C) at the moment. Had to keep the blower off the ground at least 2 inches so I would not rip into my driveway and grass. Can't wait for the ground to freeze cause I hate blowing or plowing when it is soft. :confused: Any of you have that problem lately especially here in Canada. We are expecting another 3 inches over night. :eek:
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #73  
So did we ever find out what the dealer said about this issue??????
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #74  
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #75  
OK, alrighty then. Lets do a thought experiment shall we?

Lets say we have a cylinder with a very very leaky seal. It struggles to lift the FEL arms and bucket so that the cylinder is halfway extended. Now we place the joystick/valve in neutral so that the rod side port on the cylinder no longer has a flow path to the tank and of course the cylinder side no longer has connection with the pump flow. We turn off the tractor engine. So far so good? And in our system lets assume that the control valve is machined to some really really tight tolerance so that it can never never leak. The hoses and fittings are perfect and never never leak.

Now remember the internal piston seals leak like a sieve. We now throw some weight into the bucket. Lets say 1000 lbs.

The stage is set.. very leaky piston seals, perfect hoses and connections, an a totally non leaky control valve.

Now some facts. The space behind those leaky pistons seals is full of oil isn't it? AND the rod side of those leaky piston seals is full of oil and the rod itself isn't it? The rod is made of good steel, and the external rod seals are perfect and don't allow any oil to get past the rod and drip onto the ground.

You tell me how even with 1000 pounds in the bucket exerting inward force on the rod, how that rod is going to enter into the cylinder?

Think about it, the hydraulic oil is basically incompressible. Oh, its molecules might compress just a tad, but very very very little.

It don't matter one little bit that the internal seal leaks like a sieve in this scenario because all the fluid thats behind the seal and all the force of that 1000 lbs trying to press that rod into that cylinder cannot press it in there even if the internal piston seal was totally removed in some manner.

You cannot stuff the rod into the cylinder no matter what. Even if the piston body was totally gone, you still cannot stuff that rod into that cylinder full of oil. Can't be done.

Why do we need piston seals at all then you ask? Because we need them to raise the loaded bucket when we put the flow of hydraulic fluid from the control valve when it moves to open the circuit from the pump, then pressure builds behind the piston, AND, this is the important part, when we move that control valve we are not only opening up that circuit, but we are also opening up another circuit from the other side (the rod side) of the cylinder to the control valve on back to the tank.

NOW the oil on the rod side has a nice low pressure place to go. If our internal piston seals were very very leaky, guess where our flow from the valve/pump would go? Yep that is right it would go right past our leaky seals and head right back to the tank, and we would not be able to raise our load.

Now someone please tell me how I am FOS. :)
 
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   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #76  
James , your a man of few words. :)
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #77  
I usually always rest my bucket on the ground. I have a couple times left it up. It did not move over several weeks.

Post #76 almost made me fall on the floor laughing. :laughing:
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #78  
James you are completely correct.
Back in engineering school we actually did this very same experiment in hydraulics class. The teacher had a tie rod cylinder with no piston seals. It was filled with oil on both ports and a pressure gauge was installed in the rod side and a plug in the other. The the teacher put it in a shop press and asked what would happen. Most of the class said the piston would push into the cylinder without a problem. NOPE he pressed on that thing until the pressure got up to about 3000psi and blew out the rod seals. It was amazing how little force it took to intensify the pressure up to 3000psi don't remember the load used but it wasn't that much.
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #79  
OP here - a cylinder at rest and NO force exerted on it will be in equilibrium. Fluid pressure is equal and no fluid flows. IF a force (weight of bucket) increases the pressure on one side of the cylinder as opposed to the other side. In a perfect world the seals would hold a cylinder forever, but with even a pinhole, under pressure fluid will migrate to the other side due to pressure and fluid seeking equilibrium which, in turn, allows the bucket to lower.
My question was when is it considered to be enough to have warranty repair...obviously if your bucket hits the ground in 30 minutes but where is the magical point at which your dealer would say something is wrong. Where is the spec?

Fluid will never leak past the seals and go to the other side (rod side) as the rod side is full of oil as well. The problem is caused by fluid leaking in the control valve. If you removed the seals entirely the you still cannot push the rod into the cylinder with any amount of force on the rod as long as the outside seals hold and the hoses or fittings don't burst. The leakage is in your control valve unless fluid is dripping out on the ground.
 
   / FEL how long 'should' bucked remain up when parked? #80  
It really amazes me at just how many people are mis-informed about hydraulics. These threads always seem to come up 3-4 times a year. And every time they do, there are some new faces that just need to learn, and there are some people that argue the same thing (wrongly) every time. It seems this gets debated more than R4 vs R1:confused2: But the difference is, there is no right or wrong answer when talking about tires. With hydraulics, there is a clear right and wrong.

First, lets establish that there are two types of drift.

1. The type of drift that causes the cylinders to extend. Examples would be a toplink cylinder, bucket curl cylinders, backhoe boom cylinders
2. The type of drift that causes the cylinders to compress. Loader lift cylinders and excavator main boom cylinders fall into this category.

For the type that causes the cylinders to extend, the issue could be the valve, could be a cylinder, or could be a combination of both.

For the type that causes cylinders to extend, it cannot be just the cylinder seals. PERIOD, end of story. To compress a cylinder involves pushing a solid steel rod into the body of the cylinder. Forget the piston and seals for a moment. That rod that is disappearing down into the cylinder, is displacing oil. That oil has to go somewhere. If it aint leaking out of the hoses and fittings all over the ground.....it is leaking through the VALVE. The VALVE is what is faulty.

So far, in this thread alone, those that are correct are:
CalG
CADPlans
Koua
Jabelding
comancheflight (the OP)
4570man
ch1ch2

Those that are incorrect in their understand:
Ray66v
OVRSZD
rd_macgregor

Would really like to take this opportunity to move a few names off the incorrect list, and up to the list of those that understand, if said people are willing to learn.
 
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