FEL pistons housing hits FEL arm(s)

[Coyote machine]

Finally I have some pics to add to this thread. Check them out. I will add an explanation of each one after making sure they display correctly.

First pic is the left fel arm in the raised and curled position, viewed from in front of the tractor.
Second pic is the other side, same position and view.
Note in both pics the black item/plate is the QA plate pushed in on both pics at the bottom of the plate, and the end of the fel arm (orange rectangular tubing) just below it; with the end of the fel tubing all mangled up on both sides.
Next pic is with the bucket overhead shooting the 1/2 moon brackets from underneath, against the sky as background. This shows the twisting of the 1/2 moon plates on the left side of the fel arm.
Last pic is the right side fel arm from underneath with the bucket in the full dump position. It shows the black Q A plate, seem in the previous pics, with the plate pushed up against the stop, (on the underside of the fel arm) that is supposed to stop this kind of damage from occurring in the first place.

I am confident of the above statement because my friend brought over his used DK-55 and it has a brand new loader he bought with the tractor and its KL-401 pistons are NOT able to extend enough to allow them to touch the fel arm and the stop on the underside does NOT allow any further travel once it makes contact with the Q A plate. Additionally, the total design and its geometry and attachment method further prevents the type of damage going on on my tractor, since it has an additional support bar above the fel arm that restricts excessive travel. Thus problem solved on that model loader- but NOT on my KL-351.

I've got many more pics, but I think this represents what is going on, and the damage done.

Comments, ideas, suggestions.....

 

[crashz]

I'll preface this as being only a Tractor CSI theory:

It looks as if the bucket has been used in the full dump position to scrape driving forward, causing undo stress to the stops at the connection point. This caused the metal to roll and conform to the bottom of the loader arm. This also causes the dump cylinders to hit the loader arm at full dump, essential extending the dump cycle...

I've seen this before on my own tractor. The previous owner scraped the ice off of his driveway in this manner often enough to cause the same damage.

The same usage as above, but scraping in reverse, caused the bucket links to bend (as described by the other posters).

The mangled loader arm ends look very recent, as there is no rust forming yet. The only thing I can think of, is that since the bucket is able to be over-extended or over-rotated now, maybe the bucket brackets are skimming the loader arm ends at top and causing that damage?


If this is the case, I'd have to say its not a design issue, rather operator error. All frontend loaders (even the big guys) are primarily designed to scoop. This mean the cutting edge should always be parallel to the ground or close to it. Some are designed to sustain more force than others, but none are designed to be able to scrape using the cutting edge perpendicular to the ground surface. Back dragging should always be done using the back of the bucket. Most operators will tend to angle the bucket wether scraping or backdragging, but I think the acceptable limitar around 30 degrees (can't remember exactly) or so from parallel to ground surface.

First - this is just my theory about what happened. Second - if its true, don't feel to bad about it. Its not very clear that loaders should not being doing this and to be honest, most people do and get away with it. Even the heavy equipment operators do this, though usually only with soft or loose soils. Fix the links and the stops and consider it a valuable lesson. Also consider yourself lucky, as most people usually have bent hydraulic cylinders, or at least leakers due to the commpression/extend of the cylinders beyond their load limits.

 

[Coyote machine]

Note: all dark red text below is mine - for clarity- I'm commenting and asking questions inside the quote- CM

..... Back dragging should always be done using the back of the bucket. I'm unclear as to what you mean by the back of the bucket; from where to where is that exactly, does it include the bottom edge too, when the bucket is at an angle as you described below? Most operators will tend to angle the bucket wether scraping or backdragging, but I think the acceptable limits are around 30 degrees (can't remember exactly) or so from parallel to ground surface.

First - this is just my theory about what happened. I believe you are correct as to what happened. Second - if its true, don't feel to bad about it. Thanks, I'm trying not to. Its not very clear that loaders should not being doing this and to be honest, most people do and get away with it. Even the heavy equipment operators do this, though usually only with soft or loose soils. Fix the links and the stops and consider it a valuable lesson.[/COLOR] I try to learn my lessons once- hopefully and not make the same mistake over and over.... Also consider yourself lucky, as most people usually have bent hydraulic cylinders, or at least leakers due to the commpression/extend of the cylinders beyond their load limits.I hear you on that- I believe I caught it early enough to not cause any 'major' damage beyond what's already done.

For further clarification, and to help others avoid what I seem to have done to my machine via lack of knowledge and experience I want to say I did on occasion use the bucket with the blade edge on the ground in the full or near full dump position to scrape my drive while traveling backwards. Also used it in what I thought was float position; that is having the blade almost touching the ground,(where it is able to rock forward or back), and when lowered to the ground and driven forward or backward it moves in the opposite direction of tractor travel.
Also, my Kioti DK-35se/hst series tractor can easily lift the front tires off the ground and this would/can add additional pressure onto the bucket and its loader parts. I'm not saying I did that on a regular basis, I didn't, BUT it is possible to rear up like a horse would without a lot of extra effort by the operator- so BEWARE and don't get the front wheels off the ground while using the bucket.

BTW, my tractor was picked up by the dealer for repairs yesterday. He said he'd take care of me at no cost to me- so I'm hoping for a good outcome. Meanwhile, I helped him supply a friend of mine a new battery, which he desperately needed, and through in a hydraulic filter and fuel filter change while its over at my selling dealer's. Trying to wash the other hand.
Will keep you all posted as top outcome.

 

[tommu56]

Is this the same problem as this thread?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/162027-front-end-loader-pistons-housing.html

tom

 

[Coyote machine]

Is this the same problem as this thread?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/162027-front-end-loader-pistons-housing.html

tom

Yes it is. When I posted in the Kioti forum I received NO replies for a few days, so I decided I might get a response in the hydraulics section. After posting there I started to get some replies in both locations, albeit different ideas and responses. I have monitored both posts and they have each been useful in their own right. And I hope by their being in two places more people will see them than might otherwise and possibly be helped in preventing what happened to me since it seems this particular problem is not tractor specific.

 

[dcyrilc]

Note: all dark red text below is mine - for clarity- I'm commenting and asking questions inside the quote- CM

..... Back dragging should always be done using the back of the bucket. I'm unclear as to what you mean by the back of the bucket; from where to where is that exactly, does it include the bottom edge too, when the bucket is at an angle as you described below?

Coyote,
The back of the bucket is the side attached to the FEL. Back dragging should be done with the bucket in a position ranging from full curl to possibly a 30 degree down angle on the bucket. When dragging hard material, drag with the bucket flat on the ground so that the lower back of the bucket does the dragging instead of the blade edge. When dragging to compact loose material, lower the blade edge 10-15 degrees so that the bucket compresses the material as it passes over it. In these positions, it is safe to raise the front wheels off the ground. Angles past 30 degrees can be used to drag loose material off the top of a pile toward the base of the pile so that it can be scooped up easier, but should never be used to drag across a hard/firm surface. Also, when pushing in a forward direction, the bucket should never be at an angle steeper than what it can cut into the material (typically 10-15 degrees of down angle max). If the bucket is steep enough for rocks and things to catch and roll the bucket, the angle is too steep.

 

[lakngulf]

This information has been very useful to this rookie. I too had used my FEL in the perpendicular position to smooth dirt going backwards. Will use the heel of the bucket now. Another thread suggested filling the bucket 1/4 to 1/2 full for better smoothing action, using the heel.

 

[Coyote machine]

The problem has been dealt with by my selling dealer. He took all the 1/2 moon pieces off my tractor's fel and put them aside- they were not repairable. He took the same pieces off a new unit and put them on mine and welded a much heavier stop block on the Q A's.
He did charge me for the 1/2 moon pieces, which ran $130 for the set of four. He did not charge me for disassembly, repair, welding, trucking both ways, etc. I also had him do a hydraulic and hst filter and fuel filter change while it was at the shop. Hydraulic fluid was about $21 and all in all I'm very satisfied with his repair work.
This particular repair will not be needed again, if ever, if I'm paying close attention to what I do with the bucket/fel.

I will post the 'finished product' pics when I find time to take them, upload them, etc.

 

[dcyrilc]

The problem has been dealt with by my selling dealer. He took all the 1/2 moon pieces off my tractor's fel and put them aside- they were not repairable. He took the same pieces off a new unit and put them on mine and welded a much heavier stop block on the Q A's.
He did charge me for the 1/2 moon pieces, which ran $130 for the set of four. He did not charge me for disassembly, repair, welding, trucking both ways, etc. I also had him do a hydraulic and hst filter and fuel filter change while it was at the shop. Hydraulic fluid was about $21 and all in all I'm very satisfied with his repair work.
This particular repair will not be needed again, if ever, if I'm paying close attention to what I do with the bucket/fel.

I will post the 'finished product' pics when I find time to take them, upload them, etc.

Sounds like your dealer treated you pretty fairly.

 

[kattywumpus]

Thankfully I have not seen this issue on my new KL401 and I have done a lot of back dragging. Granted most of the time the bucket bottom has only been a few degrees above the ground angle. After reading this posting I'm going to be careful how I use the bucket in the full dump position.