Finding buried pipe

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   / Finding buried pipe #32  
I was a non-believer as well, until about 15 years ago when my uncle taught me. It really works. I'm not as good as many, but I can generally get within 2' of a pipe, or cable in the middle of a field.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #33  
It is hard to believe that grown adults believe this stuff. Some of you say that you have to believe. Just what is this scientific principle that something like this works. How many of you believe in ghost? How many of you think that you will not die if you go up in a balloon to 40,000 feet with out oxygen. How many of you think that you are not going to die. What if I blindfold the expert and let him use whatever rods he wants, and I lead him/her around a certain property, and see if he can locate anything.

This idea has got out of hand so much that people are claiming that they can locate septic tanks, PVC lines, sprinkler wires, water, and tell you the quality of the water. etc. The list goes on and on. How is it that one has the mastery of electric/magnetic principles, but can not predict storms, flooding, etc. I have had people try and show me it works, but somehow it didn't work. I even purchased the polished brass rods with knobs on the end, and put them in the PVC holder. Seems like I could make those rods go any direction I wanted. Does psychic ability even exist. How come some of those people don't predict anything good. How come we don't know about the bad things that are going to happen. It is getting hard to believe in much of anything any more. Marriage, forget that, divorce rate is about 50 %. Quality of the food we eat, didn't have to worry about food years go. Out government, banks, etc. Can you even believe in the future generation, seeing the results that are out there today.

I guess we all have to believe in something, or do we. Your belief may change tomorrow after seeing something new.

You all reckon that if I take a pair of those magic rods and go out in a river, that the rods might spin around like a propeller.

What does an apple or peach forked branch got to do with magnetic fields, etc.

Believe what you will .

I sure wished we could have used those sticks to locate ships and wrecks and other things when I was in the NAVY.

The equipment we used cost thousands of taxpayer dollars, but it did work, using proven scientific principles.


I believe.............................




I will have another beer!
 
   / Finding buried pipe #34  
As far as proof, I listed some published research of scientifically controlled studies above.

Within the field of Philosophy there are the areas of Ontology (what is real/true?) and Epistemology (how do you know?).

These are the ways that people throughout history have claimed that they "know" something:

1. Personal experience. The problem is that one person's personal experience may be very different than other's.

2. A divine being told me so. The problem is that another person may say the same divine being told him something completely different, or that, "Your divine being is false; mine is real, and he told me otherwise." An alternate version is, "I'm connected to the universe and the cosmos lets me know."

3. It is written in a book that one considers infallible ultimate truth. One problem is that other people have a different book they consider to be ultimate truth. Another is flaws within such texts: internal contradictions, things revealed by analysis using the Historical-Critical literary method, including Source Criticism, Text Criticism, Form Criticism, Redaction Criticism, Anachronistic Analysis, and others.

4. A Holy See, whose words are infallible, said so. One such dictum was decreed in the middle ages, stating that the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Each man who succeeded him stated agreement. It wasn't until the 1990's that the one before the current one issued a new decree that those before him had all been wrong, and that the earth is actually spherical and orbits the sun; he didn't go so far as to acknowledge that Sol is on a far outer arm of the Milky Way, nor the location of our galaxy cluster in the full universe. Another problem is that a different person considers that holy man to be false, and his own to be infallible and these men say differing things.

5. Systems of reason and logic, which include syllogism, dialectic, induction, deduction, metaphysics, etc.

6. Scientific methodologies which include the Hypothetico-Deductive Model of Scientific Investigation and Placebo Controlled Double-Blind Clinical Trials, among other methods. These methodologies are the only ones that set a hypothesis, run experiments controlled for outside independent variables in multiple trials, rely on observation of all known and verified methods of detection, accept peer review, and insist on repeated verifiable results by other scientists. Science accepts a theory as true after trying as much as possible to disprove something and not succeeding. Nevertheless, there are occasional "revolutions" such as the shift from Newtonian to Quantum Physics a century ago, or the discovery by Edwin Hubble that the universe is not limited to the Milky Way, but is much more vast, full of billions of galaxies. Science is self-correcting, but is the only epistemology that sets about testing whether its assumptions are really true or not.

Forensics is the field of what is arguable in court. There are not only forensic scientists (e.g. N.C.I.S., C.S.I.), but forensic accountants and other forensic fields. High school courses entitled "Forensics" are not science courses, but courses involving mock court. Our justice system no longer allows "psychics" to testify that one person murdered another and this is "known" because the psychic had a vision. (Imagine for a moment that a judge allowed this against YOU!!) There are "Touch Therapists" who claim they can stand with their hands a foot away from you, sensing your energy field and push (they don't actually touch you-just get close) it back into "balance", thus curing you of cancer, asthma, or any other ailment. These people want to be able to "treat" patients, then file a bill for the "treatment" and be paid by insurance companies. They have lobbied for this payment to be mandated in any new health care legislation. Do you want YOUR insurance premiums to be higher, so other people can visit a "Touch Therapist" and have it paid for? If you don't they call you a "non-believer". (Note: only a single politician has considered supporting such stuff in congress-and you'd be surprised which party.) Are there energy fields? Well, if I hold a cow magnet in one hand above a paper clip in the other, the paper clip will jump off my palm and fly upwards to the magnet. Numerous experiments give evidence of electromagnetic fields. Numerous tests give no evidence of human aural energy fields. Courts do not currently recognize Touch Therapy treatments as valid, nor do they recognize the accuracy of palm readers, crystal ball readers, the healing power of crystals, the healing power of magnets, or the ability of a rabbit's foot to bring you good fortune. They regularly dismiss the accounts of those claiming to have experienced alien abduction or to have seen Elvis. If you make a voodoo doll of your ex-wife, stick pins all through it, and she dies, you cannot be charged with murder based on that alone. It doesn't kill her; it just makes you feel better.

Suppose Mr. Jones wants to buy a piece of land out on the boundary where semi-forest meets the desert. No one else lives there, but he wants to build a house and retire there. He applies for a loan from a bank in the nearest town 120 miles away. The bank wants proof the a septic system will perk and there is ground water for a well before they make the loan. Mr. Jones brings a signed affidavit from a water witch that there is water on the property. The loan officer is told by the bank president that if he approves the loan, but there turns out not to be water, any foreclosure losses will come from HIS salary. YOU happen to be that loan officer. Are YOU going to accept the affidavit of the water witch and approve that loan? Thank goodness, you couldn't do it if you wanted to. The statement of a water witch is not acceptable on loan applications, nor in any legal circumstances whatsoever. And for good reason. On the other hand, an analysis by a hydrological geologist of the percentage of successful well bore attempts in nearby areas and of known aquifer characteristics is legally accepted.

This is not meant to be a treatise on whether any religion or deity is true or false. Those are matters of faith. But this is a site about tractors and all things mechanical. Our tractors and implements are designed and built by engineers. Scientists experiment and figure out the principles of physics, and then engineers apply those principles in designing such things as tractors, cars, engines, and implements. I am sure there are "water diviners" who often find water. They intuitively understand things about geology and hydrology that they didn't pick up in a classroom. They attribute their success to a supernatural ability. Plow a huge field, fill it with numerous pipes and valves and have the water flow remotely changed by a completely different person not observing the test. Blindfold the subject holding the witching stick, have him led to differing numbered spots by a still different person who has no idea if the water is currently running below each spot. Bring the data together and see where water really was flowing in each trial, and what the water witch said at each occasion and consistently, water witches get it right no more percentage of the time than random guessing.

People sometimes mistake coincidence for cause and effect. An example is electromagnetic radiation and cancer. Some people who lived under power lines got cancer. As that was their experience, they assumed the electromagnetic radiation "caused" the cancer. Courts allowed judgments against power companies. A subsequent decade of research revealed there is no connection. Statistical epidemiology shows that the correlation is what would be expected randomly. It's like this. You blast the side of a barn with a few rounds of bird shot. You then use a brush to sling paint from a dozen yards away at the same wall. Now there will be places with just paint and no bird shot, places with birdshot and no paint, places with paint over a bird shot hole, and places with neither one. The fact that there is a place where there is paint and bird shot is not proof that the bird shot caused the paint to be there nor that the paint caused the bird shot to be there. It is a coincidence that both are in the same location. The same was true with the power lines and cancer. There were places with power lines and no cancer, places with cancer and no power lines, places with neither, and places with both. The distribution was exactly what would be expected to occur in a totally random distribution. Scientists then tried to see if they could cause cancer with electromagnetic radiation. They put all kinds of lab animals right by very high voltage wires (without touching the wires) and kept them inches away for long and extended periods. In trial after trial, conducted at differing labs and universities, clinicians were unable to induce cancer in lab animals using electromagnetic radiation. Courts are now using the results of this research and litigation outcomes differ today from the past. Still, people want to believe that cell phones give you brain cancer.

Many people believe in a plethora of supernatural things. I believe in things that are beyond the ability of science to measure. The thing is, I acknowledge that I cannot prove such things and they are things I take on faith. I cannot "prove" they are true and don't try to.

I prefer that we avoid overspeculation on supernatural abilities of "witches". I'm here to share and find information related to tractors that has some empirical standing.
 
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   / Finding buried pipe #35  
If something works it works. I use it all the time in the culvert instalation buisness. I don't how it works it just works.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #36  
It is hard to believe that grown adults believe this stuff

Just curious...do you believe that we (humans) know everything there is to know about our world and the universe?
Do you not concede the possibility that the art of dowsing draws its power from a force or effect (magnetic etc.) that we have very little understanding of?

I say...Of course it (dowsing) is not based on any scientific principles but there is plenty of evidence to indicate that there is "something" to the art that will *one day*

If anyone is familiar with the "String Theory" and understands just the basic concept can easily see where the difference in the frequencies of different types of matter (iron pipe in shale/clay etc) could possibly one day be detected with a machine...

Also some people are more sensitive than others...

Ever heard of a "tin foil hat"?

here is a trick to see how sensitive you are to certain conditions (but you have to take advantage of an opportunity)...the next time you get a chance to enter the radiology room (the room where they take X-Rays) of a hospital or clinic...concentrate when you enter the room (the actual room where the X-Rays are taken, not the waiting room)...see if you can sense/feel any minute difference in just the way "things" feel...

If you are sensitive in nature...because the radiology lab is lined with lead (the entire room will have at least a 1/8 layer of lead) enveloping the room...even the door will have a layer of lead sheeting...even the openings for electrical shitches,plugs etc. will have lead shields...As soon as you enter the room you will no longer be bombarded with thousands of different wavelengths of different radio frequencies...we are constantly being slammed with everything from weather and aircraft radar to wifi Internet signal bands and *everythig* in between...


Do cell phones cause cancer? it is hard to find a relational graph of cancer cases in relation to the advent of the radio signal...

sorry for the off topic commentary...
 
   / Finding buried pipe #37  
Agree with J.J. This is almost certainly hogwash and DEFINITELY not on topic for the Kubota Owning/Operating forum.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #38  
This idea has got out of hand so much that people are claiming that they can locate septic tanks, PVC lines, sprinkler wires, water, and tell you the quality of the water. etc.

Hey, I found a septic line today. Seriously! I have to admit that I found it with my excavator though. :eek: I'm fairly certain that I can find the septic tank the same way. Since I'm replacing it, I hope I find it in short order. Otherwise I'm gonna have to do a lot of digging by hand.

I have no definitive reason to believe it will work. I suppose I'll have to be in the non-believing group.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #39  
Back in around 1995, I was doing the electrical work on a parking lot. We had buried a bunch of our PVC pipes, but in one area the excavating contractor got the grade stakes wrong initially and then later filled it in making one of the pipes about 6 feet below grade. I had no idea within 30 or so feet where this pipe would be. One of the older guys on the job, (Phil), told me he could find the conduit by divining if I gave him an apprentice to do the digging.

I was always a skeptic about divining, but Phil insisted that he could find it. We got a couple of pieces of #10 solid and Phil found the PVC pipe right away. He walked at right angles to the pipe and we put a stake in the ground where he said the pipe would be. He did this a couple of times and we had a pretty straight line of stakes.

We did the digging and sure enough found the pipe right away. I was amazed and kidded him that he got lucky... Phil was an old farm boy and said he had found stuff all the time.

So, I'm inclinded to believe it.
 
   / Finding buried pipe #40  
As a teenager, I did the same thing with metal coat hangers straightened out and bent appropriately with one end sitting in the neck of a coke bottle to give a low friction holder. I was able to locate buried metal pipe about 1 foot down this way... pretty amazing... unclear why/how it works, but it did for me.:)

Only one way to settle this... MYTHBUSTERS!!!!
 
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