Finding property lines

[dmccarty]

bones1,

If you have trees maybe 6 inche or larger you can look for slashes in the bark. In NC the surveyor will but two horizontal slashes on the tree facing the property line. Near a corner they put in three slashes.

Eddies comments about the flagging are well founded. Look near the property lines tied to smaller trees and bushes. I can find flagging that was put up years ago but its torn and faded. Also you can look on the ground. The flagging will be near the lines.

My survey stakes are pipes driven into the ground. They have 2-3 inches exposed. The stakes in the subdivision I used to live in where driven below grade.

Later,
Dan

 

[Mosby]

I'll take a stab at the BRL. I have seen BSL and BRL. Building restriction line and building setback line. Just a thought on your distances is that is always between 2 points and not necessarily the entire property line as we view it. This can be especially evident when it is following a road etc... I think we have had one, four point lot. I don't mind the big turns, it is the ever so minor ones that have caused me issues to figure out.

 

[meledward23]

With the OT arkansas comment I has to throw in a funny (in my book it's a funny). I was looking for land/house near where I live now. I foiund an old 1930's 1000sqft house on 6 acres. The land goes for about 75k an acre. They wanted 400k for the land. The agent says, well they really are only charging for the land the hosue is free. I was good with that, then when I asked in general where is the property line, he had no idea. Plot, nope.... Site map, nope..... The only thing the realtor knew for certain was that the house and driveway were on the six acres.

I just found it funny. The real value is in the land. Where is the land? I have no idea.

Needless to say, I moved on...

(I am sure this is comlpetely worthless to the current discussion. Sorry, sometimes one just has to share).

 

[Lovecruzin]

I got a problem.....I have owned 4 acres for 30 some years and the property on both sides are very well defined by double tree line ( one row mine, trees are over 80 years old, and the other row neighbors). All of a sudden a doctor is developing the land next to us and says that some of my trees are on his property.......and wants to cut them down because hes building a retaining wall up to the property line. My question is....after all these years that has been a clear mark for the property line and now all of a sudden they are saying that its moved about 2 feet or more.......even if....and thats a big if.....if hes right, only some of the trees have encroached upon his land by about 2 to 3 'inches'........does he have the right to cut down the rest of the trees?????? These are beautiful pine trees and are over 150 feet tall and we dont want them cut down......We also live in Pennsylvania....so I dont know what laws are. Years ago it was surveyed and property line was down middle of trees, now their surveyor says it moved 2 ft.......

 

[dodge man]

Wow, a three year old thread got reborn.

Lovecruzin, to answer your question do you have a copy of the old survey of your place? Ask the neighbor to show you the new pins and a copy of the new survey. Be nice about it, people can get very upset over boundary issues, so don't get emotional. If he has had a survey done and you don't agree with it, the only thing you can do is get a new survey done at your expense. If it turns out the trees are on his land, he can cut them down. If they happen to be on the line, that gets complicated and may depend on your states law, but they are usually co-owned and he can't cut them down unless you agree.

I am a land surveyor in Illinois so I have alot of experience in dealing with people who think they know where the boundaries are. I'm not trying to insult you, but are you sure you know where the boundary is? Can you find the old markers? The reason I ask this I have run into alot of people who swear they know exactly where the boundary is, but when pressed on the issue they really don't. Its usually based on a vague recollection. I would advise you not to contact a lawyer until you know where the boundary is and have determined that there is a difference in two different surveys, or if the neighbor didn't even get his ground surveyed and is just trying to railroad you. If you think a survey costs alot of money, taking someone to court gets really expensive. I have heard $10,000 as the STARTING amount to get a boundary dispute resolved in court. In other words try to work it out with the neighbor.

Good luck with the boundary problem.

 

[LBrown59]

I got a problem.....I have owned 4 acres for 30 some years and the property on both sides are very well defined by double tree line ( one row mine, trees are over 80 years old, and the other row neighbors). All of a sudden a doctor is developing the land next to us and says that some of my trees are on his property.......and wants to cut them down because hes building a retaining wall up to the property line. My question is....after all these years that has been a clear mark for the property line and now all of a sudden they are saying that its moved about 2 feet or more.......even if....and thats a big if.....if hes right, only some of the trees have encroached upon his land by about 2 to 3 'inches'........does he have the right to cut down the rest of the trees?????? These are beautiful pine trees and are over 150 feet tall and we dont want them cut down......We also live in Pennsylvania....so I dont know what laws are. Years ago it was surveyed and property line was down middle of trees, now their surveyor says it moved 2 ft.......

Why does it automatically follow that this suveyor is rite and your surveyor is wrong >> >>> ????????

 

[Lovecruzin]

Even if what he says is true, 99% of the trees are on the line with 95% of the trees on my property.......hows hes going to build a 4 ft retaining wall on the line, and without getting on my property. The archetic says that some of the retaining wall would have to be on our property and that we will have to sit down and negotiate........

 

[dodge man]

LBrown it doesn't. Sometimes for various reasons, surveyors don't agree. Surveys can get really complicated and we don't always agree with each other. I know I always try to work with other surveyors and try to reach some kind of common ground and not have a gap or overlap in the boundary. My opinion is that it makes surveyors look bad if we don't come up with the same boundary, but sometimes it happens.

 

[zeuspaul]

Lovecruzin

Do you have the legal description of the property? As Dodge Man indicated do you have the survey showing the trees in relation to the property line? Is the line between the trees monumented? Did the surveyor find old monuments or did he set new ones?

Do your building codes allow structures at the property line or is there a set back requirement?

Zeuspaul

 

[dodge man]

It sounds like they know some of the trees are yours or on the line. It also sounds like the want an easement for putting a retaining wall on your land. If they want to sit down and talk I would. You need to decide how much compensation you want to let them do that kind of work. In other words, how much money do you want.

 

[dmccarty]

Can you find the pins/markers for the line?

Has a survey been done in the past? I would think so and it should be at the court house with the deed. Sometimes the boundry is just words but that could help you if the description says the line is between the two lines of trees. Often there is a plot with the deed as well. I would go to the court house and research your land and HIS. The people at my court house have been very helpful to me in the past.

While at the courthouse go to the GIS/mapping department. Ask if they can show you your land. Our county is rural but we have a GIS department. Not only can I see my land plotted out but also with the boundry lines shown on an arial photo. I can access this from the web which you might be able to do for your county. The photos on the web are pretty decent. They also have photos in the office that contain much more detail. I can buy copies of these photos with the boundries from the county for a few dollars.

Obviously if you can pull out an arial photo supplied by the county with the property boundy going between the two tree lines you have a pretty power argument on who owns what.

This should only take a few hours to do at the court house.

Regarding the retaining wall. I would expect there are set backs they would have to follow. I don't know that I would give them an easement. Easements just seem to have problems. I would look at selling them the land they need if I did not need the land. Course they have to pay for EVERYTHING regarding the sold land, new survey, deed, etc. And the price would not be cheap.

If they are putting in a retaining wall are they changing the flow of water? That can be a no no as well. I would be at the building inspector's office asking questions if you think this will affect you.

If the trees are on his land unless there is a regulation or ordinance he can do with them as he see fit.

Later,
Dan

 

[Lovecruzin]

As far as zoning and restrictions on property lines......we have another problem.....when we bought place 31 years ago it was strictly zoned residential R-3 and partially agriculture so far back.....but in last 6 years or so it has been changed to commerical C-3......the building that they want to build is a big medical complex. 4 stories over 50,000 sq ft.... What zoning law do we go by? We still consider ourselves Residential, and until 6 mo. ago the property next door was a house....but now they are bldg a commerical bldg. Zoning for residential says that they cant build on property line, but commercial says that they can......what rule do you go by?

 

[Lovecruzin]

They are also directing all the water to our side of property. They are putting in rip rap area with all water from parking lot right to our property line and thats where it all dumps.

We called DEP and they sited them for a few things, and made them finally put up black plastic but everything is running back to creek in back. Problem with DEP is that they have supposedly laws and regulations but all fines have been repealed.....

Dr. has tons of money and all the twp. supervisiors and his "buddies"......

Architect asked me "who was stupid enough to plant trees on the line".....
We are like in a no win situation

 

[dmccarty]

The architect is a moron.

You plant trees on the line so everyone knows where the line is located.

If their land is zone commercial then that is the rules to be followed.

Run off issues can be regulated by the state, federal, county, and city/town.

You might be in one of these situations where you have to get a lawyer with all that is going on to get some advice specific to your locale. I am afraid you are going to have to learn the rules for your area to make sure they are followed by the Dr. If you can show that he is really stepping on you and violating building code, water run off rules, etc., the local TV stations LOVE stories along those lines.

But its not going to be fun for you.

If the area is going commercial can you sell out for a small fortune and move on?

Later,
Dan

 

[/pine]

you can rent metal detectors from most rental outlets...

 

[dodge man]

Some areas have storm water detention requirements. This means you can't put more runoff on someone than is already their. This is an issue when you start paving areas that were grass. You will have to read the zoning ordinace to see what the requirment is for setbacks. Somewhere there is an offical zoning map you can look at see what your property and the adjoiners are zoned. It sounds like a residental area that has gone commercial.

As far as GIS maps go, they AREN'T offical. Often times they are just a pretty picture. Sometimes the boundaries are close, sometimes not. The inside joke among surveyors is that GIS means "Get it surveyed". Most GIS systems are used for property assement.

I rarely recomend someone getting a lawyer, but the more I hear about your situation, it might not be a bad idea.

As far as trying to survey it your self, I wouldn't recomend it. As a land surveyor, its not like I'm the only person who can use a tape measure by law, but I'm the only person whose opinion matters when it comes to boundaries. If you weren't having problems, I'd probably say go for it and try to figure your boundaries yourself, but in this case I would advise against it.

 

[Lovecruzin]

We are going to have to go to the court house and get original deed....I know its one of those that says, so many degrees this way, and of marker, etc etc.......but most of those old markers are gone.........so I know we are in for a real hassle..........

You want to hear the really, really, really bad part about all of this.......The Dr. is my "boss" and has been for over 20 years.......I just think he thought he could walk all over me............

 

[J_J]

I have the same situation in regards to property lines. A 40 acre lot was surveyed and marked off using monuments and rods in ground with yellow caps with surveyors number. I have that full survey, as that survey becomes my left marker for my 10 acer side. Now, this 40 acres are subdivided into 4, 10 acre lots. I looked at all the stakes and markers, and was amazed at how crooked that 1000 ft line had become. Now one of the owners has submitted a complaint to the State Attorneys office, and I had to go meet with a mediator to try and hash out the problem. We had a few harsh words, and I had all the surveys, and pictures of monuments and rods with numbers. The other guy just thought he was so right since his new survey was the most recent. I had put up a fence line about 5 years ago based on the survey, and the other guy wanted another 4 ft on my line. The mediator suggested he get another survey since he was the one complaining. I saw them doing the new survey, about 5 months ago, and have not heard about the results. If worse comes to worse, I would probably have let him use those 4 ft until all this could become certified as to the real property lines. I sure thought that all discrepancies were to be noted on all survey.

With this new GPS survey system, just who is correct, the new surveyor with the new system or the old survey that has been certified.

You have to be flexible sometimes, but you don't have to bend over. Pardon me.

 

[J_J]

We are going to have to go to the court house and get original deed....I know its one of those that says, so many degrees this way, and of marker, etc etc.......but most of those old markers are gone.........so I know we are in for a real hassle..........

You want to hear the really, really, really bad part about all of this.......The Dr. is my "boss" and has been for over 20 years.......I just think he thought he could walk all over me............

If he is your boss, that is sad indeed. If he overcomes all this, you will not like him or want to work for him anymore. If you win or keep what is yours , then he will not like you very much after you put him down. He can fire you for various reasons, by documenting trivial things, your attitude, jokes you may tell, performance, etc. If you absolutely need this particular job, then you have to give maybe a little. or a lot, depends on what you want to give, and can tolerant another person that is trying to roll over you. I would be looking for another job. It ain't going get any better.

 

[dodge man]

Lovecruzin, this just gets more interesting all the time. JJ, as far as GPS goes, its just another tool, no better or worse than using a steel tape. It just looks impressive. JJ, I think what you have run into is the debate on what monuments to hold. Say the line is suppose to be straight. Then it gets subdivided and new corners are put on what is suppose to be a straight line, when in fact you can never get them perfect. Fast forward several years and another surveyor comes along and he has to decide what monuments to hold. As a rule I tend to hold all found momuments if possible, but it just depends on how far off they are and each case in unique. Sometimes surveyors get hung up on the numbers. Say a lot is suppose to be 100 feet wide. You find to markers that are 99.99 feet apart, are they the corners or is one corner off 0.01'. Suppose you find markers that are 99.50 feet apart, do you hold the markers? Suppose you find markers that are 95.00 feet apart, at some point the error is to great and you can't use the found marker, at what point that occurs is where the proffesional judgement kicks in.