Finishing mowers

[eagle107]

If you mow fast like me, then you should get the mower with the higher fpm to maintain the cut quality. I had used flail mowers to cut my property for over 17 years: had a Mott Hammer Knife flail mower and then a New Holland 918H flail mower. The flail mowers will last a long time as my uncle still uses his Ford 917 which 30+ years old. However, three issues I had with my flail mowers. First, you need to mower slow with them especially if your property is bumpy. If you go too fast, the flail mower will start to bounce with the backend roller and give you an uneven cut. Depending on how low the blades are set for finishing, the mower will also dig into the ground when it bounces causing a ripple affect making your property even bumpier. Second, while some flails float, they do not float as much as the finishing mowers. If you have a lot of dips and small hills, the finishing mower will follow the contours of the property better than a flail mower. My uncle just had to use my Woods PRD8400 finishing mower to cut his new strip of property because his 917 flail would not float across the ground's contours enough giving him an even cut.

The last issue with a flail mower is the cost to replace the cutting knives. The New Holland 918H has reversible cutting knives and you could also re-sharpen them, but the knives will get to a point when the indentations in the metal (from scalping, hitting rocks and hitting sticks on the ground) are too deep to sharpen and you have to purchase a new set of knives. The New Holland 918H flail mower had 96 knives and it cost me $325.00 for a set of replacement knives. To replace the blades on my Woods PRD8400 finishing mower would cost me $90 to $100. Flail mowers have their place and are good mowers, but if your 30 to 40 acres are bumpy like mine and you need to go fast to get the cutting job done, then a finishing mower would be your better bet. I would go with the TM100 Rhino.

 

[leonz]

About your derailing dealer;


Was he smiling when he was telling you that?


What he did not say is he would make less money on a flail mower sale!!!!!!!!


Flailmowers are used quite often for mowing tall brush and green cover crops
so he is mistaken again and apparently has never used one.

If you type folding flailmowers in your search engine you will have a lot of links to
manufacturers with folding flailmowers that are mowing 12 foot sunflowers and
other crops in europe.



Using John Deere as the example:

A John Deere Flail Mower or any flail mower with a finish flail rotor will give you a
better cut than your rotary any day with less work-our 7 foot cut 25A always
performed above our expectations.

(ANY flailmower with a finish cut flail mower rotor with three or four rows of
knives will always cut very well).


He was lying to you making a blanket statement about flailmower knive cost
as the cost of replacement depends entirely on mowing conditions/knive type
and the number of knives replaced only.

I have side slicer knives that are over twenty years old and still cut grass like
a hot knive through butter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is also lying to you about the maintenance for a flail mower as well!!!

Simple maintenance is all that is required as long as you take care of it
by greasing the rear roller it AND not over greasing the rotor bearings,
checking the knives and knive hangers, and checking the belts so his
argument is baseless as well.

You also have to sure that youcheck the gearbox oil level and remove
the belt guard to grease any fittings that are under the belt guard and
buried in rubber and grass dust, the maintenance is not hard to do.


My flail mower is thirty plus years old and we have had to replace the main
bearings, worn knives and small engine parts only so that is another bogus argument that
has no basis in fact-he forgot to mention that there are many many 30 plus year old
Mott Mowers still hard at work every day!!!!!

His argument about side slicer knive cost is bogus as you can buy side slicers from
Flail Master and Clean Cutter very economically!!!!!!


Now lets get into this blade tip speed business:


A flailmower is able to mow very efficiently for several reasons:

1. The act of verticutting slices and lifts the clippings up and over the flailmower rotor
and back down to the ground because of the pressure gradient/suction created by the
large number of side slicers or cup knives and the mower hood acting as a duct to
channel the clippings and air flow from the front to the rear of the mower ahead of the
rear roller in most models(the exception being a flail mower used to mow roadside
ditches as the rotation is reversed to prevent an object from being expelled out from
under the flail mower hood and impacting a vehicle approaching the mowing tractor
from the rear of the mower).

2. the side slicers or cup knives following the first knive are cutting and overlapping
the cut across the entire width of the mower at all times creating very small clippings
in normal grass conditions.

3. the flail mower belt drive is very efficient in delivering power to the flail mower rotor
via a large pulley with one or two belts. The mass of the flailmower rotor provides the
inertia required for the flail mower to mow very efficiently at the speed required versus
a right angle gearbox and belts.

if you are mowing good sod(and that is all you are doing)the side slicers will last you for
many years and when they are worn you can simply flip them over to expose the new
edge for more years of service.

The higher blade tip speed argument is a non issue because
it is only an issue with rotary mowers simply to enable to mow
a race track speeds so to speak as the blades simply throw the
cut grass from left to right out the chute.
__________________________________________________
If you throw a mower blade out of a rotary mower that blade
will travel for hundreds of feet at a very high speed until it is
slowed down by gravity or hit ana object or heaven forbid a
pedestrian or an animal.

Please look up Iron Horses postings about mowers and what
happend to him the first time he used his rotary cutter and
what happened when he hit a protruding bolt with his
rotary cutter-the impact of the rotary cutter blade sent the
bolt several hundred feet and penetrated a nearby house into
one of its interior walls)It was the last time he used rotary cutter
as he told the dealer to come back and get the rotary cutter a
few minutes after using it and he replaced it with a flail mower.
.
A flailmower uses the verticut method of slicing grass and brush
and operates at a lower speed because it can and was designed to
mow at a lower speed of rotation due to to the fact that the
side slicers and cup knives overlap when cutting/slicing requiring less speed.
===================================================
Getting model and brand specific for you to have a better understanding of this:


Using the John Deere 390 model flailmower as an example;

This flail mower uses the verticut method of mowing and shredding.

The rotor rotates at 1,850 R.P.M. in the case of the John Deere 390
model flail mower which has a 90 inch cut.

This flail mower uses 168 side slicers/84 knive stations to mow with
providing you with very fine clippings which will decompose quickly.

The 168 side slicers knives have 1.5 inches of cutting edge if I
remember correctly and this gives you 252 inches of exposed cutting edge
on one side of the knives alone compared to a 100 inch belly mower which
only exposed 50 inches of cutting edge to the work at all times with the
other blade always trailing.

You can jam any mower by mowing too fast trying to do the job and mowing
on a schedule (weather permitting) is always the major factor.

You can mow a damp or wet field with a flail mower if needed as well with no difficulty
(I have done this with no issues). this is something you cannot do with a rotary mower
without plugging it up!

This model (the 390)also offers the cup knive which creates a waffle pattern of
mowing in the grass on the first pass and a second pass (if desired)
in the opposite diection will reduce this waffle pattern

Good turf that is mowed with a flail mower is shocked much less than
with a rotary mower as only a small bit of the grass blade is sliced
from the grass stalk and the grass blade will recover much more
quickly after mowing.


This model can be powered with a tractor that has 30-70 horse power
at the power take off and your tractor has more than enough power for it.

The flailmower will make much less noise than any rotary mower and as
your mowing good sod the sode slicers will last you a very long time before
they need to be flipped or replaced for that matter and the rear roller will
prevent scalping and also act as a striper at no extra charge.

The flail mower will recut your clippings if they get long due to rain and
heavy grass growth where a rotary mower will not shred clippings unless
they are bone dry to the point of shattering.

I am not interested in what inside your wallet, I just believe and think that
flail mower is a much better mower for good turf and mowing in most all
conditions where unless a heavy forestry mower is needed the decision
about a mower type is affected by the prime mover/carrier used and the
power available to power the mower.

In that case it is typically hydraulic power which in most cases is off the
attachment port of the carrier and may or may not have a high flow/high
pressure hydraulic system.


I want you to succeed and not fail, that is why I would like you read the flail mower
postings and threads to make your own decision.

I do not know what your relationship is with this dealer AND I would talk to Ken Sweet
about his high quality finish flail mowers as he is forum sponsor in good standing.

I would find another one as he is not helping you with a better product mowing product
that will out your current mule and the next one as long as you take care of it.

 

[clemsonfor]

Oh no another flail mower thread?

Leonz, do work for a flail mower company?

Just the initial investment does not make sense. The econmoics of it. He is looking at a $5000 finish mower or a $12000 flail? You can buy a lot of bearing spindles belts blades etc for the additional price difference!

 

[leonz]

Where exactly do you get the $12,000 figure for a John Deere Model 390 finish flail mower?

What happens if He throws a blade and it hits something or someone?
what do you suggest he does then? Hope he has lots of liability insurance?



I know you can spend 12,000 dollars on a crop shredder which is slightly larger in size


The more implement or power you buy for a specific task the longer it will last you
because it will not lack for power or be stressed and it will cost you less over the life
of the implement.

Case in point being many Mott Flail Mowers that are over 30 years old and
still mowing along.


Any 8 foot flail mower would be more than adequate for his tractor,
and the tractor will have plenty of power for the mower it and it will
also make much less noise than a rotary mower.



This specific mowers implement price is not available on the John Deere site.


If he wanted to purchase a used model John Deere model 390 mower;
he can buy three good used flail model 390 model flail mowers on
tractor house right now for $2950.00, $3000.00, or 4,000.00.


He is mowing to make money, A flail mower will not have the problems he has dealt with
with his current mower EVER because the flail mower or any flail mower for that matter is
a much more solidly built mower THAT WILL NOT TWIST OR RACK through its frame
because of the solid metal tube across the front of the flail mower, the fully welded
side plate weldments and the rear rollers further preventing the mower from wracking
and bending.


I would rather see him buy a new Diamond Brand finish flail mower from Ken Sweet
because he is a forum sponsor anyway.


Your statement saying it make no economic sense is baseless as they are two different
types of mowers AND the flail mower operates at the same ground speed at a slower
blade tip speed with more blade edge length versus the high speed of a rotary mower blade.



You pay for quality

 

[boggen]

Thanks for the reply. I have no hills or valleys. I am using a TN75S New Holland and the cab with A/C is really nice in Alabama. I mow at 9 to 11 KM/Hr.....which I think is about 6 or 8 mph. Anything slower would be too time consuming. I am concerned about maintainence costs and time on a flail as well as speed of cutting.

do a google search for "calculator mow width mph" there are a variety of sites out there with calculators from simple to more complex.

just entering 30 to 40 acres, 5 to 8 MPH, 90", 100", 120", 140" decks at a couple different sites...
i get back 4 hours to 9 hours of non stop mowing of 30 to 40 acres.

======================
googling rhino FM100, rhino TM 100 Befco Cyclone C 70-110 and clicking over on images. to see pictures of them. i would be hesitant. of getting any of them. due to "deck flexing" i see see metal supports that run from the front of the deck to the back of the deck. but i see no metal structural support that runs the width of the deck. once you put deck down the 4 gauge wheels at for ends is the only thing that is supporting deck, yet you have, PTO shaft, gear box, weight of 3pt hitch lower arms, top link,and suction from blades spinning all pushing and sucking the center of the deck down. and with all the beating a finishing mower deck takes (constant vibration from gauge wheels rolling over dirt, to PTO shaft vibration to other. i am getting rather skeptical of a wide single deck. and the deck not flexing in center and causing center to scalp more.

if i compare a bush hog deck support vs finishing mowers a bush hog deck normally has extra bracing going in multi directions across the deck. to help reduce flexing of the deck. and finishing mowers you are looking at i just scratch my head. granted i am no engineer, and only going with experience here on the farm. but might consider having extra structural supports welded to top of these larger single deck width decks. or perhaps go with a 3 deck bat wing setup. perhaps just adding 4 more gauge wheels for a total of 8 gauge wheels on the deck. to help reduce deck flexing and in that center of deck scalping the down and into the dirt.

unhook deck from tractor, get a good long level, take the shields off the deck. and put level across the deck. then stand on the center of the deck. and see if there is any bowing. in the middle if there is, you will experience scalping

=============================

Leonz, thank you for that great reply! I don't have a folding mower and have not looked at one mainly due to cost and complexity issues. Transportation and immovable objects are not a problem. A new 12' folding rotary with three decks looks to be in the $12-14,000 range. I paid $3100 for the FM100 Rhino in 2003 and it looks like $5-6,000 now. I also looked at the Befco Cyclone C70-110 (single deck and 110 inches wide) and it is slightly more expensive. The main worry I have on the Befco in blade speed.....14,900 fpm vs. 18,200 on the Rhino TM100 (the replacement for the FM100, single deck with 100 inch cutting width). My cutting height is around 1 1/2 inches on the grass. My dealer discouraged me regarding the flail this afternoon saying that replacing the blades is very expensive and that maintenance would be a lot more for the flail vs. the rotary. He also thought that cutting more than about an inch of grass with the fine cut blades might be a problem. My main concerns are 1.) cost of acquiring the new mower, 2.)the need to have a very professional look after cutting, and 3.)not having to go too slow so I can get through and do other things. Thank you again for your time in preparing the above response.

100" = 8.33 feet width and tractor HP upwards of 40 plus. more the better.

gang reel mower.
Pro Mow 7 Gang Reel Mowing System — 11ft. 4in. Cutting Width, Model# G0701 | Gang Reel Mowers| Northern Tool + Equipment
$3800 bucks 11' 4" cut width. and a small 20 HP tractor to pull it.

gang real mower = no wind row (clump of grass clippings coming out of the deck)
finishing mower = more chance of wind rows and clump of grass. due to just the nature of how finishing mowers cut grass.

pay for tool to help sharpen the blades easier on a gang real mower

 

[ironpen]

I guess it would be fair to say I am more confused than ever. I am not mowing to make money...it is volunteer work at my church. I have been out mowing all day with my tc33d New Holland and I am burned to a crisp. It has a 72" belly mower. The cut looks great, but it really takes a lot longer than the 100 incher. I am unable to find a TM 100 anywhere. I have some feelers out in the midwest from internet sites....but no responses yet. I shudder to think what the freight would be on that. I have talked to some Befco owners and they say they could not recommend them. I have some Woods equipment down at my farm and have been very impressed. The 990 only goes down to 1.5 inches at it's lowest and I am not sure if that is low enough. I also hate to lose the extra 10 inches. Rhino is not going to have a production run for at least 3 weeks. I might be dead in this heat by then!! My A/C cab is sorely missed. I haven't priced a flail, but a 6 or 7 footer just will not do anyway. I don't have the time to do a lot of upkeep and blade sharpening on a reel mower. I agree the cut looks fantastic with them. I found out the problem with the FM100 Rhino. The middle spindle somehow has become angled crookedly with the result of one side absolutely digging up the ground. I must have run over something I guess. The shop says they need to cut out the section of the deck this spindle is attached to and reweld to get it back up and level. Excuse my while I get something to throw up into. I guess I will proceed with repair for now and see what happens. If I find something else, I plan to buy it anyway, but I really can't afford to spend enough to buy a triple decker and then deal with nine blades, 12 tires, 4 gearboxes, etc. Any further advice would be appreciated because I really am confused and probably a little irrational right now. I do have a problem with clumps as some have suggested because the fields are heavily watered and fertilized and anything over three days is a clump disaster which requires me to raise the deck and mow it a second time for clump disbursement. That is a real pain the behind. We went on vacation for a week and I had to mow it three times to get it looking good again.

 

[leonz]

I did not know you were doing this mowing
as a volunteer work.

I was not trying to confuse you in any way,
I want to help you with this.

If you look at the flail mower posts and threads
you will be well informed about this.

If the sheet steel is cracked like this, no repair is
going to help you because the metal surrounding
the drilled hole for the gearbox is stressed and
weakened from the weight of the gearbox and the stress
of the mower working and breaking the steel sheet..

The end welds of the top sheet should be hammered
a bit to see if they are solid,I think you will find
weakened factory welds there also.

If you have some brake clean or isopropyl alcohol you should
wire brush the welds and spray the brake clean or wipe a
rag soaked in alcohol along the entire length of the welds
and if there are any cracked butt seam welds at the
90 degree angles and other places they will show up immediately.


They should be providing you with a reciept for the value of services
provided by you as it is a tax deductable donation given by YOU
to the church and you should not be doing otherwise.

The JD390 flail mowers (and the used 390's I mentioned) will mow down
to .5 inches and the flailmower with the side slicers will not leave any clumps.

Even purchasing the $4,000.00 used 390 flail mower which is newer than the
other two will get you out of the mess your in and you will have forever mower.

The JD model 390 flail mowers I talked of earlier and the new ones are almost 90 inches wide in cut so they are not slackers.


If they are not fussy about how it looks right after you cut it you can
mow in a spiral pattern starting at the center of the mowing areas.
This eliminates almost all the braking and turning around saving
you time and effort. The grass looks fine after a day or so using
a rotary or a flail mower. The flail mower leaves a nice spiral stripe
though. (This does save a lot of time and fuel in mowing and it adds up).

Like I said I do not have my hand on your wallet, and you do not owe me the
time of day but I simply want you to succeed.

 

[ironpen]

Thank you Leonz!

 

[clemsonfor]

Sorry Leonz the $12k price was for a tripple deck mower.

As to OP that should not be that much of a price to have them cut and reweld. I was going to say there gonna have to cut out the damage reweld a new plater there to hold gearbox level. Or they could maybe beat it flat and then weld some support metal in to hold it up , but there doing it right.


Building on what leaoz said you can dedcut you time to cut as a tax deduction right? Your donating equiptment time. Should be worth about $80/hr with your equiptment!

 

[ironpen]

Good idea on the tax deductions.