Fire from neighbor's land

[MT Kioti]

Many states are limiting the liability for people or corporations causing massive fires. For example, there is a bill in the legislature in Montana eliminating responsibility for power companies that cause wildfires.

Of course, this is a free ticket to eliminate required maintenance on power lines and poles, reduce their workforce, and increase the profits of the company. Additionally, this would increase insurance for private landowners, or eliminate availability all together.

A win all around for big business, not for the small farmer though.

 

[4570Man]

Make sure you fully document what happened and your losses. Much easier to do this now and preclude memories from changing later. Lots of pictures will help along with reports from Fire Department, police, neighbor descriptions, etc.

It’s already well known by state agencies that he “broke the law”. Who is he supposed to report it to?

 

[pacosperson]

Got a phone call this morning that the neighbor next to my property let his fire get away and burned about 15 acres of my property and one structure. The house trailer was unocupied but was used for storage. Not sure should I contact a lawyer, the DA or work out something with the neighbor. I don't live on the property but my children do and there is a no burn order for the whole state.

Hopefully you have a lawyer you know and trust. See the lawyer and learn exactly what your rights are and where to be cautious. Then move on from there. My attorney would give me that 15 minutes free. Talk to a pro. You cannot make a list of what you don't know.

 

[homey53]

Got a phone call this morning that the neighbor next to my property let his fire get away and burned about 15 acres of my property and one structure. The house trailer was unocupied but was used for storage. Not sure should I contact a lawyer, the DA or work out something with the neighbor. I don't live on the property but my children do and there is a no burn order for the whole state.

If there was a "No Burn Order" in effect, I'd say your neighbor is in deep do-do. You want at least enough to cover your losses.

 

[gsganzer]

Many states are limiting the liability for people or corporations causing massive fires. For example, there is a bill in the legislature in Montana eliminating responsibility for power companies that cause wildfires.

Of course, this is a free ticket to eliminate required maintenance on power lines and poles, reduce their workforce, and increase the profits of the company. Additionally, this would increase insurance for private landowners, or eliminate availability all together.

A win all around for big business, not for the small farmer though.

I have mixed views on this. There's always a risk in providing a utility to a consumer. I think in the case of the California lawsuits, the utility was between a rock and a hard place. Maintenance was required, but access and methods allowed for maintenance were restricted. Add to that, severe drought and excessive winds. I'm sure there would have been just as many lawsuits if the utility shut off power for weeks/months until the drought/wind danger passed.

Like most legislation, I think the devil is in the details of how this bill is written. Yes, the utilities should be expected to maintain their equipment for normally expected conditions. But also yes, they should be given some degree of protection for "force majeure".

 

[Aquabird]

Well, first off I cut a black walnut tree down, had it sawed and kiln dried. The lumber was worth around $1500, many years ago. I had a mature pine in my yard that a drunk ran into at 3am. I watched as the driver got out and walked away and the woman passenger crawl behind the wheel. The HP came and I told him what I saw. He never found the guy and blew what I told him off. My tree died and I got no compensation. I lost something of great value to me. I hope for your sake the trees are not stressed beyond recovery.

 

[JRH02]

I try to be a good neighbor and I hope to get some neighborliness in return. I am the only full-timer around. If I'm going to be burning and any of the non-resident folks are at their place I pay a visit to them so there is no alarm or surprises. I expect the same - or at least hope for some consideration. There IS NO phone or cell service for miles and this is dense forest so a small fire will become disaster in very short order.

I've experienced this exact same thing with city boys who torch a whole slash pile instead of feeding it to keep it under control. not to mention burning on a day when the air is moving. In one case it happened twice by the same adjacent land owner and four different RFD's and a 'hot-shot' crew worked to extinguish it. And the crew was there every day for a week monitoring for a restart. After that 2nd screw up he was billed well over $20,000 and I am sure that wasn't the full cost. That guy ended up selling his 80 acres and I don't miss him at all. I take this kind of stuff personally because if they burn their land down they lose a camper or tiny home on wheels. If our homestead burns down we lose 20 years of work built from scratch on raw land and every physical thing we own, livestock and some pretty darn expensive machinery. Not to mention 160 acres of mature PPine, Doug Fir and Oregon Oak.

I hope you come out of this OK. But you don't seem to be all that upset over your neighbor's incompetence. Your businesslike handling of this will hopefully not only help to cover your losses but to provide a bit of badly needed education.

 

[ddavis317]

Got a phone call this morning that the neighbor next to my property let his fire get away and burned about 15 acres of my property and one structure. The house trailer was unocupied but was used for storage. Not sure should I contact a lawyer, the DA or work out something with the neighbor. I don't live on the property but my children do and there is a no burn order for the whole state.

I would consult a lawyer first they will answer all of your questions, some of them offer free initial consultation. Then see what your neighbor is going to do. If he is not willing to take responsibility then at that time you can inform him you have a lawyer.

Talk to him than go from there.

 

[sunandsand]

Similar situation here a few years ago. Twice, no less.

Neighbor (we're on very good terms) was burning some brush on a nice, calm day, the wind picked up and the fire got "interesting". He tried to put it out with his tractor (obligatory TBN content), and ran over a railroad spike left there by previous (dirtball) owner, immobilizing the tractor. He was able to get the tractor out of harm's way, and the FD showed up, put the fire out, and gave him a stern warning.

A few years later, he's got a friend's camper parked next to his fifth wheel and storage shed and out of the clear blue sky, no rain, it gets hit by lightning.

Kaboom!!! - The propane bottles blow up, the camper is in flames, the truck's gas tank goes up, looks like some kind of a grade B disaster movie.

He's not home . . . but his 81 y.o. mother is out there fighting the roaring flames with a garden hose . . . and realizes pretty quickly that this is a losing proposition, and she calls the FD.

Meantime, I'm sitting in my house and I'm hearing this noise, kind of like a railroad train, but from the wrong direction. Go outside and look, nothing north, east, west . . . but oh **** look south! Great big billows of smoke, sparks, and its coming THIS WAY!

FD shows up, hoses down everything to little avail, the flames from burning brush are higher than the roof on my hangar (17 feet) and we have no fewer than a dozen fire engines parked on our front lawn. (I have a screen grab from one of the news helicopters showing the flames very near the hangar.) We have fire equipment and personnel from as far as 20 miles away.

They've got the area surrounding my house and hangar well hosed down, and one of the fire marshals tells me that I don't look particularly worried. I told him yes, I am concerned, but no, I am not terribly worried because steel (hangar and roof of the house) and concrete (walls of the house) don't burn. He said he was glad that somebody got that word. We also have a "defensible space" fire margin around our structures - about 15 to 20 feet of nothing that will burn.

They also cut some fire lanes on some neighboring properties, and the fire extended almost half a mile and did manage to burn down a small part of another neighbor's wooden fence.

All in all, the damages were the camper, some miscellaneous "stuff" in his storage shed, a bunch of brush and trees (which needed to be cleared out anyway), and the neighbor's brave mother got her eyebrows slightly singed (I think that was when she decided to yell for help.)

I knew the neighbor was out of town and where, and I called him and told him to get on his horse and come home RIGHT NOW because there is a fire, your mom is fine, but but move it! He did - I had no idea he owned a supersonic pickup truck.

Took about a week for the smell to go away. neighbor and I are still on very good terms, the lightning wasn't his fault.

Best Regards,
Mike/Florida

 

[JethroB]

I’ve had more encounters with the local FD than I’d like to admit although never involving forestry dozers. They’ve never sent me a bill for their service.

I believe our state forestry units charge $190 minimum for the first hour of dozer use if called out and unloaded. Then $150/hour thereafter. I cringe at the thought of having to call them out with their plow blade. Sometimes it’s necessary but that plow leaves a mess of a ditch.

Pines here destined for the sawmill are currently worth about $25/ton.

 

[marhar]

Got a phone call this morning that the neighbor next to my property let his fire get away and burned about 15 acres of my property and one structure. The house trailer was unocupied but was used for storage. Not sure should I contact a lawyer, the DA or work out something with the neighbor. I don't live on the property but my children do and there is a no burn order for the whole state.

Start by talking to your neighbor; you will then know if his insurance will cover you or if will pay for your damages. If the conversation turns negative then speak with a lawyer. Good Luck

 

[BladesNBarrels]

Similar situation here a few years ago. Twice, no less.

Neighbor (we're on very good terms) was burning some brush on a nice, calm day, the wind picked up and the fire got "interesting". He tried to put it out with his tractor (obligatory TBN content), and ran over a railroad spike left there by previous (dirtball) owner, immobilizing the tractor. He was able to get the tractor out of harm's way, and the FD showed up, put the fire out, and gave him a stern warning.

A few years later, he's got a friend's camper parked next to his fifth wheel and storage shed and out of the clear blue sky, no rain, it gets hit by lightning.

Kaboom!!! - The propane bottles blow up, the camper is in flames, the truck's gas tank goes up, looks like some kind of a grade B disaster movie.

He's not home . . . but his 81 y.o. mother is out there fighting the roaring flames with a garden hose . . . and realizes pretty quickly that this is a losing proposition, and she calls the FD.

Meantime, I'm sitting in my house and I'm hearing this noise, kind of like a railroad train, but from the wrong direction. Go outside and look, nothing north, east, west . . . but oh **** look south! Great big billows of smoke, sparks, and its coming THIS WAY!

FD shows up, hoses down everything to little avail, the flames from burning brush are higher than the roof on my hangar (17 feet) and we have no fewer than a dozen fire engines parked on our front lawn. (I have a screen grab from one of the news helicopters showing the flames very near the hangar.) We have fire equipment and personnel from as far as 20 miles away.

They've got the area surrounding my house and hangar well hosed down, and one of the fire marshals tells me that I don't look particularly worried. I told him yes, I am concerned, but no, I am not terribly worried because steel (hangar and roof of the house) and concrete (walls of the house) don't burn. He said he was glad that somebody got that word. We also have a "defensible space" fire margin around our structures - about 15 to 20 feet of nothing that will burn.

They also cut some fire lanes on some neighboring properties, and the fire extended almost half a mile and did manage to burn down a small part of another neighbor's wooden fence.

All in all, the damages were the camper, some miscellaneous "stuff" in his storage shed, a bunch of brush and trees (which needed to be cleared out anyway), and the neighbor's brave mother got her eyebrows slightly singed (I think that was when she decided to yell for help.)

I knew the neighbor was out of town and where, and I called him and told him to get on his horse and come home RIGHT NOW because there is a fire, your mom is fine, but but move it! He did - I had no idea he owned a supersonic pickup truck.

Took about a week for the smell to go away. neighbor and I are still on very good terms, the lightning wasn't his fault.

Best Regards,
Mike/Florida

Great narrative and writing.
Thank you for posting!

 

[RVGuy]

Both he and you should have liability insurance to cover this kind of thing. I would ask him to get in touch with his insurance to open a claim. Also, your insurance company should be willing to work with you to get your neighbor to compensate you for your losses. If there was a burn ban in place, then the local or state fire authorities will be involved. I assume that some local firefighting unit was called out to put out the fire. They will have a case report that you should request a copy of. That will help with both legal and civil claims.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

I have mixed views on this. There's always a risk in providing a utility to a consumer. I think in the case of the California lawsuits, the utility was between a rock and a hard place. Maintenance was required, but access and methods allowed for maintenance were restricted. Add to that, severe drought and excessive winds. I'm sure there would have been just as many lawsuits if the utility shut off power for weeks/months until the drought/wind danger passed.

Like most legislation, I think the devil is in the details of how this bill is written. Yes, the utilities should be expected to maintain their equipment for normally expected conditions. But also yes, they should be given some degree of protection for "force majeure".

Add to the limited access, and maintenance type limitations the California State Board which controls utility rates had denied multiple rates increase requests for funding to do the needed line maintenance.

 

[charlessenf]

It seems like you shouldn't even need to to talk to the DA, they should do their job for something this blatant.

"they should do their job"
The district attorney is concerned with the violation of the (Burn Ban) law. The damages sustained to private property are a civil matter. If it goes to court or arbitration, the fact that there was a BURN BAN in effect would go to the neighbors culpability - a matter for civil action.

First you must DOCUMENT the damages in detail. If you negotiate based on "about a thousand dollars" and later discover and want to add five hundred for this or for that, you may be out of luck or have some difficulty changing the damages number upwardly!

 

[logcabin]

Got a phone call this morning that the neighbor next to my property let his fire get away and burned about 15 acres of my property and one structure. The house trailer was unocupied but was used for storage. Not sure should I contact a lawyer, the DA or work out something with the neighbor. I don't live on the property but my children do and there is a no burn order for the whole state.

That could get nasty. My 2 cents, did the neighbor call you or someone else? Personally I would wait a bit and see what the neighbor says. That is huge I would think. If he comes in good faith hopefully something can be worked out. If you were called by someone else and you have heard nothing from the neighbor, that says or could say a lot. Here is something to think about. In Vermont, say someone has a hedge row., It is a Cedar hedge and grows over the fence line or imaginary boundary line and the landowner gets pissed off and says, " those branches are on my land I am cutting them" He has no right to let it grow on my land!. My father inlaw cut them them! In Vermont Court he was liable for 3 times the value per tree. Along with lawyer fees, court costs and the amount sued for. I would not have a clue as to how they would value your trees. Local mill pricing maybe?? In New Hampshire it is not the case. He could have cut to the fence or line and said , screw you. The point being, check the law where you are. I know what we went through years ago. This neighbor was a total ASS the day he was born. He retired from a big insurance company, all kinds of gratuities given to him. A week later he sued this company, not sure for what. But he WON! Come to find out he had several law suits in the past and won every damn one of them. When it comes to the almight $$$$ it changes some people! Be careful even though it is nothing you did, or was a part of. Not saying your neighbor is like this guy, but be aware. I would be curious to know how this ends up. I do wish you all the best!!

 

[John_Mc]

Technically, if you know he broke the law you are required to report it.

Actually, in most states that is not true, though there are exceptions. (I believe in Ohio you are required to report a felony. I think Texas also has a requirement to report higher crimes.)

 

[macdoesit]

Your neighbor might have insurance. talk to him.

 

[paulsharvey]

I'm confused by some of the "talk to the neighbor" and "ask how he's going to make it right" talk. Why, he would be a fool to admit anything, this is an insurance issue, and your insurance might choose to sue him, that's between those parties.

Rule 1, from his point of view, "prove it". I can't imagine he's going to offer to help at all, that's just admitting guilt.

 

[dodge man]

In some states there is treble damages for logging over the line, Illinois is that way. So a $300 tree becomes $900. I don’t know if that goes for negligent fire damage or not.