Flail mower or rotary cutter?

[bherr]

I've got roughly 3 acres that has become overgrown that I want to "reclaim". Not turn into lawn, but thin some of the trees out, get rid of the multiflora rose and honeysuckle, cut the grass 3 or 4 times over the summer.

I have a 48" ratchet rake - excellent tool - that I've cleared a bunch with and that needs to be maintained. So here's the question: which is better in the long run to clear then maintain the land? A flail mower or a rotary cutter?

Where I've used the rake on less than an acre there's grass growing now and it simply needs to be mowed, but not with our JD 318; ground is too uneven and I don't plan to smooth it out. I haven't been cutting the honeysuckle; I pull it out and it gets put on a burn pile.

I have a Kioti CK20HST and am thinking in terms of a NH 918L or something like a Woods RC5.

Any opinions?

 

[leonz]

Unless you invest in a orchard and vineyard flail mower like the smallest LandPride flail mower(Maschio brand)
with the trash door and cast hammer knives the issue is pointless as you are only mowing occasionally.

A NH918L will not mow well with reduced mowing periods either.

The smallest land pride flail mower will make quick work of it with the trash door open allowing all the material to fly right out the back of the mower without falling directly to the ground. the other thing is the this flail mower will let you mow more often with ease and you can mow the honeysuckle to the ground.

 

[bherr]

Unless you invest in a orchard and vineyard flail mower like the smallest LandPride flail mower(Maschio brand)
with the trash door and cast hammer knives the issue is pointless as you are only mowing occasionally.

A NH918L will not mow well with reduced mowing periods either.

The smallest land pride flail mower will make quick work of it with the trash door open allowing all the material to fly right out the back of the mower without falling directly to the ground. the other thing is the this flail mower will let you mow more often with ease and you can mow the honeysuckle to the ground.

I neglected to mention that I saw a 50" 918L, purportedly new, listed for $1,250, which is comparable to decent 48" rotaries. I guess my question really goes to long term maintenance of the land after the initial reclamation. If I understand correctly a flail will yield a cleaner cut than a rotary once growth is under control, right? But the 918 isn't as preferred as something like the LandPride, right?

Now the "duh" moment - I just realized there are several existing threads about this subject. I need to look at those. Thanks for your input; I appreciate it.

 

[LD1]

Flail mowers are hungry for HP.

They may leave a nicer finish, somewhere between what a bushhog and finish mower will, but a bushhog will mow it alot faster. A flail is probably going to be more expensive to buy, and more expensive to maintain

Either will do the job.

 

[Utopia Texas]

I have and use a 6 foot rotary, 7 foot flail and 8 foot finish mower for my tractors on my properties. In my experience your phrase " ground is too uneven" makes the decision obvious and for me it would be the rotary cutter. Flail mowers do absolutely ugly cutting on uneven ground since the whole unit rides on a small rear roller the lenght of the unit. The roller will ride the high spot and float in the air over the low spot and leave the grass/weeds at different heights. Been there, done that! A rotary with one rear wheel will float much more evenly left to right over uneven terrain and produce a somewhat smoother cut.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

I have and use a 6 foot rotary, 7 foot flail and 8 foot finish mower for my tractors on my properties. In my experience your phrase " ground is too uneven" makes the decision obvious and for me it would be the rotary cutter. Flail mowers do absolutely ugly cutting on uneven ground since the whole unit rides on a small rear roller the lenght of the unit. The roller will ride the high spot and float in the air over the low spot and leave the grass/weeds at different heights. Been there, done that! A rotary with one rear wheel will float much more evenly left to right over uneven terrain and produce a somewhat smoother cut.

Don't forget if the ground is to uneven, the rotary will do a lil leveling on its own! :thumbsup:

 

[jeff9366]

FARMWITHJUNK operated a commercial right-of-way mowing operation. Here is his lengthy recommendation:

You're being grossly misled....The LAST thing you want is a flail mower. Unless you have time to waste, MONEY to waste, and HP running out your ears, a flail would be a serious mistake.

I own and operate a mowing business where large tracts of land are our specialty. I've tried flail mowers. I went into that phase with a predetermined notion that I could market that as some sort of "advantage". It didn't take long to recognize I'd made a mistake. Currently, we operate 7 tractor /mower rigs with 15' rotary batwings, 2 rigs with 20' rotary batwings, 3 rigs with 7' single spindle rotaries, and 2 with 6' rotaries. We commonly mow tracts of commercial real estate of several hundred acres, have a number of highway right-of-way contracts, as well as doing property maintenance on my own farm. I'll give you facts, not the "pipe dreams" of a few "dreamers" who mow just a few acres with no consideration to time OR cost.

For the record, my business mowed over 17,000 acres in the past season. My experience with flail mowers is based on 5 different models of various sizes, ALL in the top end of cost/quality, and used to mow approximately 1,200 acres during their time with me. (2 seasons past) My numbers are based on REAL WORLD operation, and not just a bunch of sales propaganda from someone who seems to have a serious case of tunnelvision.

Flails require more HP per foot than a rotary cutter, OR, be prepared to mow at a MUCH slower ground speed. (as an example, we were mowing very successfully with an 85hp tractor and 15' batwing (rotary). In the exact same conditions, 16' of flail mower was struggling along at roughly half the ground speed while on a 155hp tractor. (requiring a MUCH more costly tractor as a power unit) THAT fact has to be considered when figuring "initial cost")

Flail mowers are MUCH more costly initially.

Flails require a much higher overall long term maintenance cost.

Flails have limitations as to "conditions". You DO NOT want to mow grass that's even a little bit wet. You're more or less locked in to mowing short....Try to leave grass a bit longer than "scalped" and they do a miserable job (at best)

As you go up the charts from an entry level mower to a commercial grade mower, the cost of a flail mower goes through the roof! Commercial grade flail mowers are INCREDIBLY expensive, as is their maintenance and replacement parts. And by the admission of the sales person handling the demo, USED commercial grade flails, once showing significant wear, have a lower rate of resale worth compared to a rotary cutter.

I demo-ed several of the best flail mowers available, operating them along side of "mid range" (cost) rotaries. The rotaries outperformed the flails at a huge cost difference. Time (per acre) was nearly double with the flails. The final cost of operation (per acre) ws so disproportionately high for the flail mowers, I would have effectively been putting myself out of business.

Get a 10' or 12' drawn type rotary single wing (batwing) mower, save yourself a TON of money, get the job done faster, save yourself a ton of hours of routine maintenance, and do just as good (if not better) of a job. Long story short....a well maintained rotary cutter will provide an excellent quality of cut, and do so faster and cheaper.

There's a perfectly good explaination why over 95% of commercial mowing is done with ROTARY mowers.....Nothing else works as well, nor does anything else do so in such an economic, efficient manner.

A 10' rotary, behind a 50hp tractor, mowing normally maintained grass could reasonably expect to safely mow @ 4mph (ground speed) That would allow you to mow 50 acres in 11 to 12 hours. With a flail mower, you would struggle to mow @ 2-1/2 to 3 mph.....with a 7' or 8' mower behind that same 50hp tractor. With that, figure closer to 22 to 24 hours of mowing time for 50 acres (on average). Qualify THAT by considering your cost of purchase to be 50% to 100% higher for a commercial grade mower (rotary vs flail) and operational maintenance in a commercial application can be (usually IS) nearly double.

Based on the FACTS, no one with even a shred of "business sense" would want to mow with a flail mower. Even the sales person who was in charge of set up and demoing the flails I tried was convinced it was a pure and simple WASTE OF MONEY to use a flail in a situation where a rotary was (more than) capable of doing the same job.

 

[jeff9366]

Here is a shorter FLAIL MOWER evaluation from FARMWITHJUNK:

A flail mower is what you use to make your mowing job take longer, use more fuel to get less done, and keep the parts man and mechanics busy, all the while emptying your wallet at an incredible pace.



There are three kinds of men;
1.) The ones that learn by reading
2.) The few who learn by observation
3.) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

 

[jeff9366]

I've got roughly 3 acres that has become overgrown that I want to "reclaim". Not turn into lawn, but thin some of the trees out, get rid of the multiflora rose and honeysuckle.

I have a 48" ratchet rake - excellent tool - that I've cleared a bunch with and that needs to be maintained.

Hard to beat a Ratchet Rake for value.

Here is a thread on my search for an implement to clear vines, multiflora rose and honeysuckle: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ement-vine-root-removal-woods.html?highlight=

 

[leonz]

You are not explaining or do not know the entire story as it regards mr. farmswithjunk.

He was sold a bill of goods by the Alamo salesman that he bought his flail mower
from and his business suffered because of it.

I will look anyone in the eyes from Alamo that tries to refute my statement
simply because "they" being the "Alamo Industrial Americas saleman for Kentucky lied
to him about that flail mowers capabilities.

If they had sold him a Alamo Flail Crop Shredder the end would have been different as a flail crop shredder would have been more than a match for the conditions mowing to 2 inches in height it would have come out much differently and he would have required less time mowing.

If he had been sold the right flail mower being a flail crop shredder rated for specific frame size tractor that would have covered more acres per hour than any rotary and would have left a 2 inch height of cut.

This "Alamo" salesperson was only interested in making a sale and lost a customer for life BECAUSE he sold him the wrong flail mower claiming it would do everything for him in his contract mowing jobs. It was not going to happen and it did not happen.


In this example I believe Servis Rhino is wholly owned by Alamo if I remember correctly and their "Semi Mounted" (towed) 15 foot flail shredder which requires a 100 horse power frame size tractor tractor to operate it adequately as a semi mounted implement(towed) would have worked very well for his needs as it can cut low to the ground(one inch).

So if a fifteen foot flail crop shredder with a one hundred horsepower tractor is used and traveling at four miles per hour it covers 352 feet per minute times the 15 foot width of cut; it covers 5280 square feet per minute and 316,800 per hour in a clear path divided by 43,560 which is the area of one acre equals a bit more than 7 and 1/4 acres per hour.

AS I said he was sold a bill of goods and pie in the sky by this Alamo salesman
and there is no excuse for that and as a result he spent good money for a machine that was not big enough for the workload.

I am sorry they did this to him and if I was there it would not have happened.

I would have told him outright that the flail mower they are trying to sell you is too small and will cause you more work and fuel AND you need a flail crop shredder as you will cover more ground quickly in all mowing weather.


15 and 20 foot wide flail crop shredders are used to save time shred corn stalks, potato vines, cotton vines, sugar cane stubble, vegetable crop stubble and other field crops like wheat and alfalfa at the end of the season after harvest to cut the crop back to the ground to protect the roots of grass crops over the winter from freezing damage.

If anyone from Alamo wants to debate this and "attempt" to prove me wrong me fine, just keep it civil like I always have, and I always will.
here.

 

[smstonypoint]

So if a fifteen foot flail crop shredder with a one hundred horsepower tractor is used and traveling at four miles per hour it covers 352 feet per minute times the 15 foot width of cut; it covers 5280 square feet per minute and 316,800 per hour in a clear path divided by 43,560 which is the area of one acre equals a bit more than 7 and 1/4 acres per hour.

Because 43,550/5,280 = 8.25, the formula for theoretical capacity (acres/hour) simplifies to average ground speed (mph) * implement width (ft)/8.25.

The theoretical capacity has to be adjusted by a field efficiency factor to allow for turning, overlap, in-field equipment adjustments, etc. Ag. engineers have estimated field efficiency factors for various implements. I am not aware of published estimates for rotary cutters or flail mowers, but estimates for hay mowers are in the range of 75-85% (http://www.caes.uga.edu/departments/bae/extension/handbook/documents/capacity.pdf).

Assuming 82.5% efficiency, the formula for actual capacity (acres/hour) is average ground speed (mph) * implement width (ft)/10.

Steve

 

[aczlan]

From what FWJ said at the time, a flail crop shredder wouldn't have worked as they needed to be able to put it into transport position from the cab to get around obstacles (say a bridge abutment) and stopping to take 15 minutes to disconnect the mower, then hitch onto the end would be idiocy.
Also, generally speaking, a 15' crop shredder flail won't follow the contours of the ground worth beans and it would scalp like crazy.
There is a reason that those who use flails for ROW mowing have 1-2 mounted on the sides of the tractor and one behind the tractor, its because that is what works best.

Aaron Z

 

[LD1]

Shredding crops is nothing compared to mowing thick grass.

Let a well established lawn grow for a year and not mow it. Lawns, because they are cut so short, have grass that is growing very dense. Let that get 3' high and try to mow. (just did a job like this 2 days ago).

Shredding Corn or bean stubble....I'd be going about as fast as I could hang on. Dont require much power to cut that.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

Shredding crops is nothing compared to mowing thick grass.

Let a well established lawn grow for a year and not mow it. Lawns, because they are cut so short, have grass that is growing very dense. Let that get 3' high and try to mow. (just did a job like this 2 days ago).

Shredding Corn or bean stubble....I'd be going about as fast as I could hang on. Dont require much power to cut that.

100% agree.

 

[leonz]

Being able to tow a 15 or 20 foot wide cut flail shredder on a narrow farm road with the width of the row crop tractors rear tires with turn signals and running lights using and end hitch is not idiocy. That is what the design was ment for.

Civil engineers designed roads with narrow verges and grass separation areas to allow the installation of pairs of two and four lane traffic to move from a to b and back to a. I cannot help that they do what they do. Some rights of way would allow for the quick mowing of these areas as they are wider than 15 feet in places like route 13 and route 81 in New York.


My friend Iron Horse uses a row crop tractor and a hammer flail shredder to mow down jungle in Australia for clients and he has talked about it extensively here on the forum.

I have posted links to videos of fifteen plus foot wide folding and non folding flail crop shredders cutting down mature fully grown sunflower crops in Europe for green manure crops so.........

 

[LD1]

Have grown sunflowers before too. I think that would be like mowing corn stubble.

I have not mowed anything that takes more HP/slower going than thick dense grass ~3' tall.

Field of ragweed, mustard weed, or any other "stemmy" vegitation.....piece of cake. Grass......takes lots of power.

 

[aczlan]

Being able to tow a 15 or 20 foot wide cut flail shredder on a narrow farm road with the width of the row crop tractors rear tires with turn signals and running lights using and end hitch is not idiocy. That is what the design was ment for.

I agree IF you are mowing a field or other open area, then moving to the next one. In that case it's not a big deal to switch to tow from the end in 5-15 minutes (and you will want to clear the trash off the top of the flail anyway).
The problem is that when doing ROW work you need to switch from "wide" to "narrow" 2-3 times per hour to get around obstacles (bridges, guardrails, berms, ditches, etc).

If it was a folding flail, that would work, but with a "end towed crop flail" switching to "narrow" will mean getting out of the tractor, unhooking the hitch, hydraulics and the PTO, moving to the end and reconnecting.
That wont fly when doing ROW mowing for at least three reasons:
1. The operators wont want to do it
2. It it will increase the risk of an operator getting hit by an idiot in a car/truck
3. It will eat up time (a minimum of 5 minutes compared to folding a flail or rotary mower in 30-60 seconds)

There is a reason most highway departments use tractor mounted folding flails or batwing mowers rather than end towed flails. It is that they work best for their situation.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Have grown sunflowers before too. I think that would be like mowing corn stubble.
I have not mowed anything that takes more HP/slower going than thick dense grass ~3' tall.
Field of ragweed, mustard weed, or any other "stemmy" vegitation.....piece of cake. Grass......takes lots of power.

Excellent point. I can mow much faster in stemmy stuff than I can in tall grass.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

You are not explaining or do not know the entire story as it regards mr. farmswithjunk.

He was sold a bill of goods by the Alamo salesman that he bought his flail mower
from and his business suffered because of it.

I will look anyone in the eyes from Alamo that tries to refute my statement
simply because "they" being the "Alamo Industrial Americas saleman for Kentucky lied
to him about that flail mowers capabilities.

If they had sold him a Alamo Flail Crop Shredder the end would have been different as a flail crop shredder would have been more than a match for the conditions mowing to 2 inches in height it would have come out much differently and he would have required less time mowing.

If he had been sold the right flail mower being a flail crop shredder rated for specific frame size tractor that would have covered more acres per hour than any rotary and would have left a 2 inch height of cut.

This "Alamo" salesperson was only interested in making a sale and lost a customer for life BECAUSE he sold him the wrong flail mower claiming it would do everything for him in his contract mowing jobs. It was not going to happen and it did not happen.


In this example I believe Servis Rhino is wholly owned by Alamo if I remember correctly and their "Semi Mounted" (towed) 15 foot flail shredder which requires a 100 horse power frame size tractor tractor to operate it adequately as a semi mounted implement(towed) would have worked very well for his needs as it can cut low to the ground(one inch).

So if a fifteen foot flail crop shredder with a one hundred horsepower tractor is used and traveling at four miles per hour it covers 352 feet per minute times the 15 foot width of cut; it covers 5280 square feet per minute and 316,800 per hour in a clear path divided by 43,560 which is the area of one acre equals a bit more than 7 and 1/4 acres per hour.

AS I said he was sold a bill of goods and pie in the sky by this Alamo salesman
and there is no excuse for that and as a result he spent good money for a machine that was not big enough for the workload.

I am sorry they did this to him and if I was there it would not have happened.

I would have told him outright that the flail mower they are trying to sell you is too small and will cause you more work and fuel AND you need a flail crop shredder as you will cover more ground quickly in all mowing weather.


15 and 20 foot wide flail crop shredders are used to save time shred corn stalks, potato vines, cotton vines, sugar cane stubble, vegetable crop stubble and other field crops like wheat and alfalfa at the end of the season after harvest to cut the crop back to the ground to protect the roots of grass crops over the winter from freezing damage.

If anyone from Alamo wants to debate this and "attempt" to prove me wrong me fine, just keep it civil like I always have, and I always will.
here.

IIRC, it was a demo and the only money wasted was the money to pay for the tractor operators time.
Also, if a crop shredder would have been better, why didn't you suggest it vs saying:

Being grossly misslead AS you are inferrring and offering ones opinion based on ones 30 plus years personal experience with finish flail mowers are two different things.

A commercial mowing enterprise covering huge areas of highway median and verges and an end user with a specific area that will be decreasing over time due to potential housing development are two different things. Only he knows what the conditions are or may be on this is property not including any hidden objects that were dumped there or can be impacted and thrown by a rotary mower or rotary brush mower.

My simply describing the Vrisimo line of flail mowers or flail shredders previously as an option for what he needs was only a courtesy to him or her. I dont have a financial interest in any of this nor can one honestly compare highway mowing operations with an end user with a limited area of mowing.

The Vrisimo organisation has been building a high quality line of flail mowers for many years and the 6 Super" model flail mowers were rated with 40 to 60 horse power tractors for all six units.

IMO, there is a place for a flail, but there is an additional cost in maintenance, tractor power needed and time over using a similar sized rotary mower.

Aaron Z

 

[Fallon]

I got a 5' LandPride with my tractor. Sometime later I saw a Ford 917 (7' i think) on Craigslist for $100 before I really learned about flails, but got it anyway. It was missing knives & needed a new longer PTO. I found out some knives were hitting the hood. Cut out some of the hood & patched it up. I've got about $500 & 2 weekends of work into it & some more cracks to weld up. It's an old piece of junk, but I use it 90% of the time. It leaves a far nicer cut & is easier to maneuver, not to mention safer.

I still use the rotary for nastier stuff like woody brush & yucca, but the flail for anything grassy. I do have to go slower, but we are comparing 5' to 7' or so making overall cutting progress about the same.

All this is behind my 25ish PTO HP Kubota L3200. I love my flail.