Flasher / Turn signals Intermittent on CK-20

malk315 · Oct 28, 2007

Hey Guys-

Was doing a hay-ride for the halloween party today (will try to get some pictures posted). Pulled the hazard lights and nothing.

Headlights work fine, high beam / low beam. Tail lights are fine, brake lights are fine.

After 1st hayride they started working again -- checked that turn signals worked and hazards -- all fine, then suddenly stopped again.

Before putting the machine away, I checked the fuses and there's a turn signal 15A fuse that looks fine (didn't meter it -- I have a meter and will try more later when I have more time).

Wiggled wires going to flashers and tapped on dash near flasher pull-out switch, tried jiggling turn signal switch. Nothing working.

Well get out the meter next time to start checking continuity and measure voltage on fuse and other areas, but was hoping you guys could give me some clues on other areas to meter (i.e. where the wires are routed and terminated with connections so I can trace power to no power and maybe isolate it to a switch or connector or flasher unit somewhere).

Must be a poor connection somewhere but couldn't find anything easy to get at except some round "bullet" or "butt" connectors under each fender which I pushed in to make sure they had contact. Still nothing.

Will get some brake / electric motor cleaner (contact cleaner) but would like all points of contact you guys might know about (anything under the dash?) how hard is it to get under the dash? I had my dash take a bath in hydraulic oil when I first got the tractor last year from the clogged HST vent.

Part # of service manual that will have all wiring diagrams and such I can have my dealer order one for me???

Seems silly to bring this to the dealer when it's got to be something simple.

Thanks for any info.

eric5324 · Oct 28, 2007

i had one of the connectors come loose under the left fender. i think it was only for the one side though. worth checking out though..

malk315 · Oct 30, 2007

That's good to know -- I must have lost ground or something earlier than the individual fender connectors, both flashers no workie!

Called dealer and I learned I can pull off the lower cover by removing 6 screws (no need to remove steering wheel and upper instrument area which is good -- a lot of wires up there) and there's like 6 relays under the lower cover where one is the flasher unit. Hopefully I can use a meter to check flasher unit for input power and check around the flasher pull switch to trace back to where the power disappears. I'll also check for power at the fuse block under the hood. Won't get to it til at least the weekend and will hopefully locate and fix the problem.

Fuse block is setup nicer than I thought -- 3 spare fuses of each type w/ extra slots for additional stuff, fuse puller included. Saw the 10 amp fuse for the "customer" circuit which is the butt connectors hanging by the top of the gas tank ready for use, plus the expansion for the lights circuit (15 amp) that has connectors available off a plug on the left fender below the gas tank area. I'd like to add a work light or two facing backwards and it might be worth combining figuring out the flashers with adding lights... We'll see how ambitious I'm feeling this weekend.

I'll provide a full report for others for reference.

Grrrr · Oct 30, 2007

This may sound stupid and ignore this if you have done it allready but have you checked the actual bulbs inside the flashers?

They might just be loose or getting a dodgy conenction.

Just thought it would be worth checking this before you dive into the deep end

TractorLegend · Oct 30, 2007

Some reported bulb socket corrosion although from what you describe i'd be leaning toward a turn signal flasher- that could be common to flashers and turn sig's...maybe tap on it with a screwdrver handle when things are inoperative and see if it springs to life.

ON84 · Oct 31, 2007

We had a similar problem on a 2007 DK45S. The four-way flasher worked intermittently, and when you turned on the headlights, a fuse blew. The problem was two loose wires on the headlight / signal switch. We re-soldered the connections, and now the lights and flashers function normally.

http://www.htmlpostit.com/dk45s/wiring.jpg

malk315 · Nov 1, 2007

That's great to know -- thanks for the picture.

That looks like the same turn signal / headlight switch as the CK-20.
Now I have a preview of what to expect most likely under my dash.

I will check the bulbs before going in deep, but I'm expecting I'll need to take the panel off under the dash and go from there.

Does anyone know the proper way to remove the black pull-out switch properly that activates the hazards? It unscrews w/ a nut from the panel it's mounted on, but I'm wondering if you just pull extra hard on the knob or unscrew the knob to get the knob off so the unit can be removed from the panel?

The same question would apply to the headlight / turn signal switch -- proper way to remove it w/o ruining it?

Here's a picture to refresh anyone's memory of the layout -- unfortunately the headlight switch is obstructed by the steering wheel.

Does anyone have a part number for a shop manual or manuals so I can get some form of wiring diagrams or any other documentation that goes beyond the owner's manual? My dealer unfortunately didn't give me any answers when I called and mentioned the problem to them. They offered to fax a diagram of some sort -- but I'd rather go to the source if I can -- the shop/service manual for a CK-20. I realize it may cost some decent $$$ to get one, but it's a one time cost for a boatload of info to help w/ future things I may want to do myself.

Any dealers on here could you help by specifying part #'s of books that will have wiring diagrams and other assembly blow-out diagrams for the whole tractor?

Thanks.

malk315 · Nov 1, 2007

Forgot link to picture of CK-20 operator area.
Here we go:

http://malknet.org/ck20_arrival/IMG_0807.JPG

TractorLegend · Nov 1, 2007

I think the hazard knob unscrews
I think the headlight switch knob would have to pull off and likely theres a nut holding the body to the dash.

If it were a BMW there'd be a special $267.00 tool necessary

malk315 · Nov 10, 2007

Took lower panel off, unplugged "signal flasher relay" that's near clutch pedal.

3 wires - blue, black, and green
One is "Drive" the other is "ground" and I can't remember the 3rd label on the connector.

Blue wire has +12 volts when a meter is put across blue wire and either of the other two or to a misc metal part of tractor.

Tried jiggling hazard switch, reaching under w/o taking dash off, nothing.

can't really get under there w/ dash on and I'm too chicken to take the dash off for fear of rendering tractor unable to move (key switch will get hosed etc. most likely). Plus I have no documentation and apparently there isn't any -- still no one will give me a clear answer (my dealer or anyone on here) if there's a "service manual" I can buy that has ANYTHING beyond what my owners manual. Come on guys -- is there a part # of CK-20 manuals used in a shop??? A simple yes here's the number or no will suffice.

Any other ideas? How to bypass the flasher to see if hazard bulbs light up and stay on w/o flashing? I'm too afraid of wrecking something to just start shorting the blue wire to the others.

I'll probably take it to the dealer -- now my parking brake lever and cruise control lever (red and yellow handles) are all scratched up and dinged (slits in them) because you can't get them through the lower panel slots w/o scraping. This is exactly what ticks me off and the reason I don't take the dash off ... it'll never be like it was when new.

I'm not happy.

malk315 · Nov 22, 2007

Got my CK-20 shop manual and parts manuals yesterday.

In the back under electrical there are nice detailed wiring diagrams of the whole tractor. There are details on each circuit including the hazard lights circuit... There are procedures for removal and test of each component involved with a simple volt meter or ohm meter. Now I'm finally getting somewhere. It's very easy to see how to bypass the flasher unit to verify the rest of the circuit. Plus many places I can create temporary ground connections to isolate where the problem is.

There are also pictures of the wiring harnesses and part #'s in the parts manual.

I'd highly recommend the shop manual for anyone -- lots of excellent info in there. Now I finally feel confident I can fix the problem and not wreck things. All of the components on the dash have blow-up diagrams and disassembly procedures -- i.e. for the light switch you lift off the very top, then the turn signal lever, then there's a nut under that you loosen to free it and take it out of the dash and unplug from the harness. Had I not known this, I could have ended up breaking the thing trying to guess how to take it off.

Much better. Hopefully by the weekend I'll at least know the part to order or have the hazards working again. I'm very suspicious of the flasher unit itself now that I've seen how it's wired.

If anyone needs pictures of shop manual pages for various parts -- (really nice hydraulic routing diagram and valve explanations in there etc for example) I'd be happy to run a few pages through the scanner into a PDF and post it.

malk315 · Nov 23, 2007

Made some progress, but puzzled w/ behavior:

Unplugged flasher unit to try and light things up w/o flasher.

Three wires on there: black, green, and blue w/ red/pinkish stripe if I remember correctly.

From the shop manual, the blue wire goes to 20A fuse labeled signal flasher in fuse block under hood. The green wire goes out to the hazard switch and turn signal switch to supply +12 volts through those to the lights when flasher is charged up to light the lights. The black wire is simply ground so the flasher can function.

Buzzed w/ voltmeter the ground to bolt on chassis -- good.

Put meter across green wire and chassis -- pull hazard switch and meter beeps, push it in it stops. Same w/ turn signals. Green wire is good.

Check for voltage on blue wire -- +11.8 volts (seems low).

Created two spade terminals w/ wire between to plug into blue and green wires to bypass the flasher -- pulled hazards, no lights. Turn signals -- nothing.

Decided to light the lights w/ separate 12V battery to check the switches, bulbs, and all grounds from the green wire on out. Removed 20A fuse from fuse block for safety. Put +12V from motorcycle battery through the actual 20A fuse (to verify fuse too! and for safety) w/ a couple alligator clip jumper wires to green wire on the plug using the made up spade plug-in. Connected negative from motorcycle battery to bolt on chassis.

Pulled hazard switch -- both amber lights light up! Both green arrows on dash light up. Push hazard switch in, all 4 lamps go out.

Left signal -- left amber and green arrow light up.
Right signal -- right amber and green arrow light up.

So everything from green wire out is good including 20A fuse I had pulled from the fuse block.

Disconnected all test equipment.

Tried powering the whole thing w/ 11.8 volts on the blue wire again -- came to find that the 11.8 volts on the blue wire is present even WITHOUT the fuse in the fuse block. It appears it's a voltage potential that cannot deliver any current. When I try to power something w/ that voltage from that blue wire, it can't deliver current to drive the flasher, lights, or anything. It's obvious it is NOT from the normal 20A flasher circuit because I have that 11.8 volts whether the fuse is installed or not -- it's just floating.

So this blue wire must have a bad connection from the flasher plug on back. It just goes into a harness right by the clutch pedal and I haven't been able to trace it any further back.

Anyone have any tips on where further back in the harness this wire might get it's source power from? It should simply go from flasher plug back to the fuse block, but it's very hard to see what's what.

Now that I know it's not the hazard switch, signal switch, green arrows, amber lamps, the actual 20A fuse used, or any of the grounds for all 4 lamps, I will hopefully nail this at some point (there's not much left other than the blue wire run back to fuse block).

Worst case, I could run a new wire from fuse block to flasher plug and snip the blue wire, but I would really like to know where it's getting the residual voltage.

This was all done without the flasher unit involved -- I'll test that separately, but I know for sure when you unplug the 3 prong plug going into the flasher and then connect the green and blue wires, you should be able to pull any turn signal related switch and get a light to light up (not flash, just stay on) -- not the case for me. The residual voltage must just get sunk through the circuit w/ very little current (no lights at all) and that's it.

If someone feels daring enough, test my theory and pull the plug and use a piece of wire or paper clip to connect blue and green wires being careful not to touch any metal, then pull hazard switch to confirm they'll just light up. Note that if anyone ever suspects their flasher unit is faulty, this is a pretty easy test to check the rest of the circuit.

Stay tuned -- I'm on a mission now...

VictorW · Nov 23, 2007

Sorry I can'y help you with your CK20. I have a CK30 and haven't had any problem yet with the lights.
From your determination, I believe you'll get it.

It's now the battle of you against the tractor.

malk315 · Nov 23, 2007

I should have taken a picture of the circuit created w/ jumper wires, fuse, etc. on external battery powering the signal lights -- you guys would have thought I was diffusing a bomb right out of the movies.

Hoping to follow that blue wire tomorrow...

Yep -- determination has gone off the deep end

malk315 · Nov 24, 2007

Today's installment:

Found the blue wire w/ pink stripe at the fuse block end of the harness.
Plugged flasher back in and pulled out hazard switch.

Started trying to push the blue wire w/ red stripe into the plug better to see if there's a bad connection. Twice while I was messing with things I'm 99% sure I heard the flasher "click" but wasn't watching the amber bulbs to see if they lit up once.

So I know I'm close... I took some pictures w/ the fuse block off. I'm wondering if the two plugs that come out of the fuse block are routed properly -- i.e. they go on the inside of the air intake hose. It seems they would be under a lot less strain if they were routed on the outside (closer to the hood) of the air intake hose and just tied back to make sure the hood doesn't come down and take them out.

First picture shows fuse block w/ cover off and wires out the bottom going to the right of the air hose.

2nd picture you can see the two plugs going under the air hose.

3rd picture you can see the other sides of the plugs. The wire furthest to the left in the picture is the blue w/ pink stripe who is the power going into the flasher unit.

I'm tempted to take the air hose off to make it easier to get at everything and unplug both connections and spray 'em contact cleaner, then re-connect with the hose still off and then try putting all the wires on the other side of the hose to see if things are not so tight.

Wallace or any of the other dealers or anyone else can you please confirm the best way for these two plugs to be routed out from fuse block and into the harness?

Can one of you guys w/ a CK20 pop your hood and just look under there to see how the two main plugs coming out of the fuse block in comparison to mine?

Thanksgiving Farm · Nov 25, 2007

Try checking all of the grounds and making sure they are tight. I had an electrical problem on a CK20, (unrelated to your problem), that was fixed by removing the brake light switch, (which grounds many other items), cleaning the paint off underneath and reinstalling the mounting bolt which was loose in the first place. My problem was flickering dash lights. Grounds will take the path of least resistance if their correct path is not available to them. This "backfeeding" can cause failures in other electrical components. On this particular tractor, the starter relay fried out due to the bad brake light switch ground.

The problem is that there are not too many ground wires on a CK20.

The brake light switch is located underneath the inspection cover on the right side at the top of the brake pedal.

I would also disconnect and reconnect all plugs and make sure all wires are pushed in all of the way to the plastic plug housings. Applying some diaelectric grease to the connections wont hurt either.

Grounds on a CK20 can be metal relays bolted to the chassis, battery ground, and small wire from negative side of battery to chassis.

Good luck and dont stop trying.

Electrical problems are the most difficult to diagnose of all problems

malk315 · Nov 25, 2007

Found it!

Short story: corroded pin in one of the harness plugs. Wallace had a great tip on where all the plugs connect so the tractor can be split in half. Sand paper, wiped clean, gobbed some dielectric grease on and snapped together and all tractor functions work.

Details for inquiring minds:

I pulled the intake hose off (see pictures above) and those two connectors are a lot easier to get at. Disconnected negative battery terminal and unplugged both. They were a little dusty, but the copper contacts were in brand new shape.

Pulled fuse and buzzed w/ meter from power side of fuse to blue wire w/ red strip on plug and it's good. This pretty much ruled out the fuse block and connector to harness by that air intake hose.

I had called Wallace since he's open on sundays and he wasn't too busy and we had a great chat. Every Kioti dealer should be required to go through training by Rick and Kioti should pay rick lots of $$$ to train new dealers. Either that or figure out how to clone Rick

Anyway -- Rick noted that at the bottom right (when sitting on tractor) under the lower panel below the dash that's not too bad to take off there are like 4 or 5 plugs that all can come apart so the tractor can be split in half. He suggested checking those out.

Well I re-connected the negative terminal and pulled the hazards -- nothing. Then I started jiggling each of those connectors and a bunch flasher clicking -- pushed just right on it and flashers came to life.

Called Rick back to tell him he nailed it and he mentioned if you disconnect these plugs, if any pins are corroded, they could snap off or fall apart. I figured I only have the one pin that was a problem and I really wanted to know what was going on.

Turns out I had to unplug like 6 things to get at the plug that has the blue wire w/ red stripe involved. Every plug I pulled apart was squeeky clean on the inside until... The last plug with the most pins and the blue wire sure enough had some blue-ish crud on the flasher wire pin, but also some black and bluish crud on one of the bigger pins in there -- basically it looks like maybe some water or other corrosive thing got in and gravity kept it towards a cluster of pins in one area w/ the blue stuff forming and some black on the pins and all around one area. The flasher pin was the first to exhibit problems, but if I didn't go in there, then sure enough a few other pins down the road would start to have issues once the corrosion set in enough on those.

So I took some fine sand paper and cleaned the pins to get some shiny copper showing again, then wiped out everything to get rid of the blue and
black gunk. Q-tips worked well to get everything fairly clean under there.

Took junk vacuum cleaner I use for dirty stuff like this and sucked up all of the grit / dirt / dust (from mowing) and made sure no debris got into any of the other clean plugs. Also cleaned everywhere under that lower panel while I was at it. (decent build up of dust/dirt from mowing and perhaps it was made worse from a while back when the dash took a bath in HST oil from my clogged HST vent problem last year)

Laid in some di-electric grease on the cluprit connector on both sides so she would seal out any new crud.

Snapped together all of the various plugs -- I didn't use di-electric grease on the others because they were perfect (brand new condition) and I store my machine inside. I think the corrosion source for that one connector was way back from dealer assembly or from the 3 months it said on the lot in the weather. Also, my dealer power washes the tractor after service (which I don't) so that's another way water could have worked in (he stores the machines out back when in for service and they get dusty)

Checked everything:

Flashers / green arrows / left turn, right turn
Hi-beam indicator and hi/low beam on hood lights
Rear tail lights when lights are on
Rear brake lights
Park brake indicator
instrument panel backlight
fired tractor -- temp gauge works
Not sure if fuel gauge still works -- need some seat time to see if it goes down

tachometer works
Hour meter works -- got a 1/10th on there while waiting for temp gauge
Key stops the tractor -- stop solenoid kills fuel properly.
oil pressure, battery charge indicator, glow light up before starting and all go out when running.

All functions work -- good to check all of these because I'm certain I unplugged stuff that would affect every function.

This was good -- I learned a lot about my machine and I'm well prepared to deal with other things that might crop up -- certainly anything electrical.

Hats off once again to wallace for the tips.