Flow control or not, for sickle bar: Samuri/Sabre

[LouieJunior]

I cut the overgrowth around the edges of my fields and along my roads. I find the weakest design feature is the mounting bracket. I've learnd to check it every hour or two before it becomes loose. I've had it for 2 or 3 years and only use it a few days a year - usually in the early summer. Overall I like using it and it has taken some serious abuse. Now I need to find something that will easily pick up all of the trimmings left on the ground by the samurai.

 

[Coyote machine]

The mounting bracket may have been modified since you bought your unit. It might be worthwhile to inquire about it and maybe consider upgrading? I say this because I asked about the bracket's design before ordering, and the owner told me the bracket had been modified/changed to work better. I don't have any details as to the timeframe though.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I said nothing about the sickle's teeth being a blur in my statement above.
You insist you're right about everything you state and that what the manufacturer states is in your vernacular total B.S. You're about the only Samuri user replying to my thread, and because of that you imply that your opinions are better than anything the manufacturer, or seemingly anyone else can offer.
As the thread OP I'd like something from you that isn't in the form of you know it all and anyone else's opinion, including the manufacturer is nutz. This is NOT helpful to me in determining what I should do to get the best use out of the new equipment I've purchased.
Have you spoken to the manufacturer, ever? I have on two occasions since I considered this sickle. Over the years they've made some improvements to the bucket bracket and other items I don't recall at this moment, but are likely in my notes about the sickle.
They say that in some applications for particular uses on certain tractors there may be a need for a flow restrictor or similar, but they are vague about what constitutes the necessary parameters.
It's obvious that the best cutting would occur with that item deepest into the space between the teeth. The teeth are serrated and not able to be sharpened.
Now, if you have something that will tell me succinctly, and without convolution, whether or not I should try running the sickle with or without any flow restrictor or similar device, then please enlighten me.

I didnt say you said anything about a blur. I believe it was mentioned in the thread as an example of too fast -- too much flow. Whatever is necessary to decrease the flow to acceptable level must be done. I think your tractor will need a spitter since its a HST drive. ... Altho, if it will travel at lo idle youve got a shot at using the cutter w/o a splitter

Yes, I talked to the mfg before I bought mine about 10yrs ago.
,,,,If you had been reading my posts you would know all this already. To elaborate, there was no stipulation of a 500psi limitation - merely a statement that that is what it normally runs at. I immediately questioned whether that was idling or cutting and was told that it was under light cutting conditions and would spike hi as it cut larger stuf. I inquired whether it was OK up to normal tractor hyd relief of ~2500 and was told that was the market it was designed for. The main problem would be too much flow on larger tractors. We talked about running the engine slow to get the flow down. I was fortunate to be talking to someone knowledgeable about hydraulics and the system. I would not have bought it if I had been faced with the info the mfg has reportedly supplied to inquiry by those in this thread. Hopefully it is currently the same system as the one I have. If they have degraded it to the point that it wont work safely on tractor pressure it wont be worth having.

There has been some talk of putting in a gauge. It will be hard to interpret because youll be seeing average pressure. The load on the motor is cyclic, following cutter oscillation, and the pressure cycles to match the changing load. The gauge needle will not be able to keep up with the pressure changes. You wont ever see the full pressure changes in the different parts of the stroke, much less the spikes inherent in cutting larger stuf. It probably wont last long either due to fatigue of the gauge components.
larry

Yes. ... Speed of the cutter must be "slow" so that stuf can enter the cutter rather than bounce off. It is easy enuf to get a slow cutter speed with a tractor having 10gpm or less capacity - just run the engine slow and pick an appropriate gear for groundspeed. With bigger tractors, or those with HST, you may need a splitter valve to get the appropriate lo hyd flow the cutter needs. Your tractor will probably need this.

,,,,However, in either case the hyd system must be able to deliver 2000-3000psi to the hyd motor driving the cutter. Even at 2500psi relief the cutter will stall occasionally in 1" hardwood. You can imagine how inconvenient this is when you have a moving tractor behind a stopped cutter. Repair may be necessary. A 500PSI relief would be limited to cutting twigs. -- I dont know the source of the info error from the mfg. ... Perhaps a typo. Or else ignorance has crept into their marketing side and not been caught.
larry

OP has a 17gpm hyd delivery on his tractor. Im not sure if this is combined P/S and accessory flow or just accessory flow. -- If it is just accessory flow then, even at idle it will be delivering too much fluid for the cutter speed desired. ... To make matters worse his tractor is HST and needs to be a bit above idle to move effectively. ... If its a combined flow number tho the accessory flow will be only part of the 17 - maybe 12gpm, and idle might work. But still, HST doesnt work well at idle.
larry

I had this same type of discussion when I bought mine. They dont know, or are unable to convey, how the system works. There is no flywheel so you get nothing from faster speed unless you can slow to zero speed and nibble thru while the branch bounces like crazy. Only pressure can give the force to swipe right thru a branch as intended. The lo pressure the sickle can run at gets confused with what happens when the sickle encounters a load. In order to cut thru resistance the pressure rises. Enuf resistance and the system relief cracks and the cutter stalls. I know that 2500 is required to cut thru stuf about an inch thick. A little bigger or harder stuf will stall it unless the relief is set higher. Finally, who knows how far above 2500psi, the motor will have enuf torque to overload and damage the cutter or oscillating mechanism. My guess is around 3000psi. The relief on the tractor we use it on is set at 2600. It stalls rarely, but its always a bad scene [even at 1or2mph] if the blade cant fold back while you notice and get stopped.

 

[EHargroves]

This thread has been most helpful to me. I too will receive my Samurai mower on Tuesday, 9/23. I ordered it on 9/4, but was told they were running 10 days behind schedule. Normal shipping is 4-5 days. Thanks for posting this thread and thanks to all that have replied to the op thread. Eddie

 

[Coyote machine]

This thread has been most helpful to me. I too will receive my Samurai mower on Tuesday, 9/23. I ordered it on 9/4, but was told they were running 10 days behind schedule. Normal shipping is 4-5 days. Thanks for posting this thread and thanks to all that have replied to the op thread. Eddie

Glad to hear that this thread is of benefit to someone.:thumbsup:
Could you say what exactly has been of use to you from it?
Lets follow up with useage notes once you have yours up and running, OK?
What use are you planning for your sickle? Are you going to use it bare bones without any restrictor?

Thanks,

CM

 

[Coyote machine]

For clarity my response is in blue text.

I didnt say you said anything about a blur. I believe it was mentioned in the thread as an example of too fast -- too much flow. Whatever is necessary to decrease the flow to acceptable level must be done. I think your tractor will need a spitter since its a HST drive. ... Altho, if it will travel at lo idle youve got a shot at using the cutter w/o a splitter

Here's what you said: "I have seen no disagreement that flow should be limited to an amount such that the sickle is not a blur."

Yes, I talked to the mfg before I bought mine about 10yrs ago.
,,,,If you had been reading my posts you would know all this already.

I read, and have read all posts to my threads, including yours, so don't falsely assume what I have or have not done. I don't commit to memory each and every statement one may make, and I've been traveling Europe for the last month on va-ca, so things beyond this thread have been of higher priority in my life than whether you spoke to the manufacturer ten years ago.

To elaborate, there was no stipulation of a 500psi limitation - merely a statement that that is what it normally runs at. I immediately questioned whether that was idling or cutting and was told that it was under light cutting conditions and would spike hi as it cut larger stuf. I inquired whether it was OK up to normal tractor hyd relief of ~2500 and was told that was the market it was designed for. The main problem would be too much flow on larger tractors. We talked about running the engine slow to get the flow down. I was fortunate to be talking to someone knowledgeable about hydraulics and the system. I would not have bought it if I had been faced with the info the mfg has reportedly supplied to inquiry by those in this thread. Hopefully it is currently the same system as the one I have. If they have degraded it to the point that it wont work safely on tractor pressure it wont be worth having.

To my understanding only upgrades have occurred, like I mentioned about bracket improvements, etc. There is no 'supposedly reported info from the manufacturer', there are instances in which I have spoken to the owner on 2 occasions, and he has said that if I as the tractor owner is the only sickle operator then I can assure that the operation of the sickle is at cutter speeds below a blur of the cutters, then I should have no issues. That by controlling engine RPMs, and thus ground speed, and keeping an eye on what I'm cutting, the unit will function as designed/intended.

There has been some talk of putting in a gauge. It will be hard to interpret because youll be seeing average pressure. The load on the motor is cyclic, following cutter oscillation, and the pressure cycles to match the changing load. The gauge needle will not be able to keep up with the pressure changes. You wont ever see the full pressure changes in the different parts of the stroke, much less the spikes inherent in cutting larger stuf. It probably wont last long either due to fatigue of the gauge components.
larry

Initially I'm not going to worry about a gauge install, though I could install one at a later date.
I will add that if I recall correctly the owner of Samuri did say some owners do push, or have pushed the ground speed/cutter speed too high and at times have bent the actual blade via too much force against the items, (branches, fence posts?) thus incurring damage to the unit. I'm not certain of the exact cause/effect, but like most any piece of machinery intended to do a specific task, pushing beyond it's limits will likely incur unwanted results.

 

[EHargroves]

CM, the most benefit I have received from this thread is reading the different opinions and theories on the mower. I have not located any other detailed discussions about this particular mower.

I will follow up on my usage of the mower so we can compare notes.

I plan to use my mower to cut overgrowth on our many 4-wheeler and UTV trails on our property. Also to keep our shooting lanes clear from small limb overgrowth. I have a couple of steep ditches that I believe I can safely mow with this mower. We have been hand cutting these trails and that takes a lot of time.

I plan on starting without a restrictor at first. My Kubota MX5100DT has between 7-10 gpm left to operate the mower and is a gear model so I think I may be ok. I have small limb overgrowth, not big tree limbs. If I end up needing a restrictor, I'll go with JJ suggestions.

Eddie

 

[Coyote machine]

Update: I now have the sickle bar and have used it for several hours cutting different grasses, brush and small saplings up to around 1 1/2". So far no problems as to oscillation speed, with no modification to what came in the box. I can run it at about 1500RPMs without the teeth blurring, and this provides slow but adequate ground speed for most cutting needs. Only problem I've had to date is with the mounting bracket attaching to my factory bucket. In my experience, universal brackets seldom fit every application, and those that manage to fit some applications do so poorly at best.
In my case, I can't get both hex head Allen screws to even contact the side wall of my bucket, as intended. The gap between the inside and outside 'jaws' of the bracket don't fit my bucket well at all. I did take some kicking around steel pieces I keep on hand to try to rig up a modification to create a better fit. It's worked somewhat so far using existing holes in the side wall of my bucket, but it's not a substitute for a solid fitment of the bracket to any bucket.

That's my initial report on the Samuri sickle bar.