FMCSA interpretation of GCWR

[The Haymaker]

Wonder if someone would pick that up. I travel into New Brunswick Canada a lot.

Gotcha..... I drive LTL out of Pittsfield, get into the county occasionally, but spend most of my days in Washington county.

 

[Duffster]

I'm not even sure that DMV would give you a road test for a class A CDL if you showed up in a F450 with a trailer heavy enough to technically require a class A CDL.

They will here and in many other states.

 

[The Haymaker]

As far as "only existing to generate revenue", what would you suggest the alternative be? (Or are you saying that all commercial vehicle and driver rules and regulations are unnecessary in the first place?) In lieu of fines and such, should a driver be required to park their rig for "X" number of hours per infraction or something? That wouldn't fly. And pulling people over for infractions and issuing "warnings" is laughable as well.

While there are safety issues to be addressed, you'll never convince me, as a driver, that revenue enhancement is not high on their list. When you have these Cowboy Troopers writing tickets for items such as, citing a recent example, a screwed on HM placard being less than 3" from another marking on the truck, it's about revenue. The placard is mandated, so is the "Wide Turn" decal that it was too close too. By the time you factor in vehicle markings, handles, reinforcements struts, door seams, etc, there is no way to abide the law on this. Then there's te time they had one of our guys using a pencil and paper in a snowstorm to stencil an ID plate on a 15 year old trailer, which in turn made him run out of hours in a day cab 45 minutes from home. That wasn't only about revenue, it was about a power hungry Officer Tim McCadden just being a rear facing orifice.

Revenue. Maine has to pay for the fancy weigh stations they just built in CLOSED rest areas because apparently the state saw no money in allowing truckers to park in a safe haven to get the mandated rest.

Back to the original post, the reason why campers and large RV's aren't inside the radar is because many politicians own them, while not many drive a CMV. Same reason why Maine hasn't gone overboard with it's cellphone regulation yet.

 

[Diamondpilot]

They will here and in many other states.

My neighbor took his CDL test in a Ford E250 van pulling a trailer. He then went back to get the no air brake limitation take off driving a line truck from the phone company. He did not have to have trailer on while taking this test due to he was just there to remove the limitation.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Your book is wrong.

From Illinois motor vehicle codes.
SB2927 Engrossed - 3 - LRB096 15493 AJT 30723 b



1 combinations of vehicles may not exceed a total of 2 vehicles
2 except the following:
3 (1) A truck tractor semitrailer may draw one trailer.
4 (2) A truck tractor semitrailer may draw one converter
5 dolly.
6 (3) A truck tractor semitrailer may draw one vehicle
7 that is defined in Chapter 1 as special mobile equipment,
8 provided the overall dimension does not exceed 60 feet.
9 (4) A truck in transit may draw 3 trucks in transit
10 coupled together by the triple saddlemount method.
11 (5) Recreational vehicles consisting of 3 vehicles,
12 provided the following:
13 (A) The total overall dimension does not exceed 60
14 feet.
15 (B) The towing vehicle is a properly registered
16 vehicle capable of towing another vehicle using a
17 fifth-wheel type assembly.
18 (C) The second vehicle in the combination of
19 vehicles is a recreational vehicle that is towed by a
20 fifth-wheel assembly. This vehicle must be properly
21 registered and must be equipped with brakes,
22 regardless of weight.
23 (D) The third vehicle must be the lightest of the 3
24 vehicles and be a trailer or semitrailer designed or
25 used for transporting a boat, all-terrain vehicle,
26 personal watercraft, or motorcycle.

May very well be. Never had a issue the two time I have done so in Illinois. I also know a trailer dealer who tows double stacks of 4, 8 trailers in total, from MO to IN behind a Ford E-350 Van and never had a issue.

My guide may very well be wrong. It states in the front its just a guide. It list all vehicles tow ratings and state laws. It also has a phone number for each state so I guess if one was really concerned they could call.

Chris

 

[Ford tractor]

Back to the original post, the reason why campers and large RV's aren't inside the radar is because many politicians own them, while not many drive a CMV.

You may be correct, but there may be an additional reason. Unions. Only the big trucking companies can afford to follow the laws and they are forced to hire union labor. If you start letting other people haul stuff, the politicians may lose VOTES. Not to get political -- they all stink.

 

[FlaDon]

Good point, my choice of wording was poor. A better choice of words would have been, "The implementation of commercial vehicle enforcement programs is all about money." Ultimately what I'm getting at is that creating units to enforce commercial vehicle laws is all about the revenue that they will generate. So ultimately it's not the officers doing the enforcement that I take issue with, it's the politicians that create units which do nothing but enforce commercial vehicle laws. I hope that makes it more clear, I really can't think of a better way to say what I am trying to get across. I think that there are much better ways to spend law enforcement resources than all the efforts put into commercial vehicle enforcement.

Originally it was to make things safer. Now it is a money maker.

To answer your other question, yes I do think that some of the commercial vehicle laws are too extreme. Many of the laws were written a long time ago before many modern advancements in vehicle performance and safety. It used to take a heavy duty commercial truck to pull some of the loads that a pickup truck can easily accomplish nowadays. I'm opposed to requiring a pickup truck driver to have a class A CDL for just about anything for example. I'm not even sure that DMV would give you a road test for a class A CDL if you showed up in a F450 with a trailer heavy enough to technically require a class A CDL. And frankly I think it silly to require a person who will never drive anything other than that F450 with its albeit heavy load to learn to operate a Kenworth tractor rig or its equivalent in order to be able to legally pull some of the heavy loads that a pickup can nowadays easily and safely pull.

You would have a Class A CDL with a no air brake restriction. Unless the truck/trailer had air brakes. And yes you can be tested that way.

I also have a problem with the CDL regulations not being uniform. If it were so important that people have a CDL, drug testing and yearly medical exam to drive a bus even if there is nobody on the bus because of how dangerous such a large vehicle can be, then why is it not important that some rich guy with more money than sense can get behind the wheel of that same bus, but with a living interior instead of seats and tool around the road once or twice a year without any clue to the capabilities of the vehicle or commitment to learn about the vehicle? The reality is because the RV industry has a more powerful lobby, not because of any commitment to safety.

I'm generally a fan of keeping the government out of most of the people's every day business. I'm okay with extra taxes and so forth for heavy vehicles because they put proportionally more wear and tear on the roads. I just get tired of the government nickle and diming people to death over things which aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, and I get really upset when the laws are not applied uniformly across the board. Yeah if someone is driving down the road with a truck full of gravel with no cover over the top and causing rocks to fly out of the back and break other people's property then yeah he needs a fine as it's pretty easy to see the hazards associated with such behavior. However some of the things that people get tickets for don't even equate to operating something outside of its designed safety limits even those those safety limits are obviously in excess of its rated limits.

Agreed!:thumbsup:

 

[Skyco]

May very well be. Never had a issue the two time I have done so in Illinois. I also know a trailer dealer who tows double stacks of 4, 8 trailers in total, from MO to IN behind a Ford E-350 Van and never had a issue.

My guide may very well be wrong. It states in the front its just a guide. It list all vehicles tow ratings and state laws. It also has a phone number for each state so I guess if one was really concerned they could call.

Chris

Really concerned? It's just a guide? - OK your guide, which so far you've not identified, definitely is wrong. You told me I was wrong when I stated some states require fifth wheels to tow two trailers. So yeah off to research it since I knew I'd seen it somewhere, backpedal all you want. :licking:

The fact you or someone you know hasn't had an issue is moot...I see two trailers towed quite often in SC when they can't get here without going through at least one other state where it is also illegal, but as with many things in law enforcement, it just slips through, I doubt 10% of the cops in SC even have a clue it is illegal here, and probably 90% of the ones that do just don't care
Sometimes the fact something is illegal on the highway only seems to matter if there is an accident where the law was violated- Your honor, Mr. Diamondpilot here violated the law when he dangerously towed TWO trailers and had an accident injuring Mr. Skyco, so he obviously was negligent:laughing:

 

[Skyco]

The arguments about revenue enhancement don't fly with me, here is why-
At my NC property we are annoyed every few minutes by a big rig descending a long steep grade on I-26 with no mufflers and using his jake brake.
No problem with jake brakes, great device, but don't take the dang mufflers off the truck then run around making a huge amount of noise. I also hear the legal trucks but just barely, and have no problem with them or "normal" traffic noise.
So the point is- virtually everyone of those trucks go through a weigh station further west on I-26. Do the "transport cops" there write them a ticket for no mufflers? NOPE. Easy money for the state. It is illegal under both state and federal law to tamper with the exhaust system on vehicles built since 1985 or so. Pretty easy to spot trucks with no mufflers...usually an independent often with those gigantic stacks... So why do they bypass this "easy money" ticket?
BTW my main home is several miles from another interstate and I've never know it was there except for- yep- the illegally modified trucks with no mufflers. Don't even get me started on the dang Harleys, and I'm a biker too, just hate loud unnecessary noise

 

[Duffster]

Attached is a PDF from the DOT that explains the farm exemptions. This is current as of March 2010. I am going to print it out and have it in my truck. Hope this helps.

Thanks for posting that.

Am I missing something or reading it wrong?

This says you are exempt from FMCSA regs if below 26k.

For purposes of equipment, maintenance, logs etc., Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations define a CMV as a vehicle or combination with a GVWR/GCWR of 10,001 lbs. or more. However, Wisconsin Statutes 194.05(4) contains an exemption from FMCSR for farm trucks or
dual purpose farm trucks combined with any semi-trailer
or farm trailer or any vehicle combined with a horse trailer,
if the vehicle combinationç—´ gross combination weight rating, registered weight and actual gross weight do not exceed 26,000 lbs., and the vehicle combination is operated solely in intrastate commerce.

 

[ahlkey]

That is correct but my problem is that my combined GCWR is over 26,000 with my trailer attached so I need the medical card as explained in the other PDF regarding safety requirements.

 

[Duffster]

That is correct but my problem is that my combined GCWR is over 26,000 with my trailer attached so I need the medical card as explained in the other PDF regarding safety requirements.

Correct but wouldn't you need the DOT number to go along with it?

 

[ahlkey]

I do not believe so. Earlier this year I called the DOT directly and after a few more calls I finally learned from the state patrol office (enforcement office) that I am ok without a DOT number. They did however advise me that it would be good thing to do and since it is free I should get one as it might eliminate any questions from the uninformed patrol officier. I never did apply for one though as I thought it might confuse things even more. For example, no DOT means everything is farm use but with the DOT number than maybe it could imply that I am indeed operating the vehicle as a commerical truck at times?

The following is what I learned: If I stay within the state even if I exceed 26,000 I do not need a DOT. However if I cross state lines as a farmer with a truck or truck and trailer and the combination exceeding 26,000-lbs, then I need to have a USDOT Number.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lurch]

The arguments about revenue enhancement don't fly with me, here is why-
At my NC property we are annoyed every few minutes by a big rig descending a long steep grade on I-26 with no mufflers and using his jake brake.
No problem with jake brakes, great device, but don't take the dang mufflers off the truck then run around making a huge amount of noise. I also hear the legal trucks but just barely, and have no problem with them or "normal" traffic noise.
So the point is- virtually everyone of those trucks go through a weigh station further west on I-26. Do the "transport cops" there write them a ticket for no mufflers? NOPE. Easy money for the state. It is illegal under both state and federal law to tamper with the exhaust system on vehicles built since 1985 or so. Pretty easy to spot trucks with no mufflers...usually an independent often with those gigantic stacks... So why do they bypass this "easy money" ticket?
BTW my main home is several miles from another interstate and I've never know it was there except for- yep- the illegally modified trucks with no mufflers. Don't even get me started on the dang Harleys, and I'm a biker too, just hate loud unnecessary noise

Actually, it's only illegal to tamper with emissions related exhaust components. Mufflers are only for noise suppression. The turbo charger on a diesel qualifies as a "restrictive device" in the exhaust stream and there you have the loophole that lets diesels run straight pipes. Why they've never changed the rules I don't really know. Some towns are posted "no Jake zones" because of noise ordinance issues.

 

[Skyco]

NC state law specifically states mufflers are mandatory.
Besides the NC transport police have told me they can write tickets for it, from what I see they just apparently don't bother. When I asked to see data about how many muffler tickets they write annually they refused.
They did offer to pay an inspection visit to any in state based trucker that I report to them. Kinda hard to do when I can't see them, only hear them.
Seems it would be a lot easier to just catch 'em as they come through the weigh station...
Interestingly the company that makes the Jake Brake pleads for enforcement of noise laws since it makes them look "bad" when really it isn't their product but the misapplication of it that causes issues.

 

[The Haymaker]

The arguments about revenue enhancement don't fly with me, here is why-
At my NC property we are annoyed every few minutes by a big rig descending a long steep grade on I-26 with no mufflers and using his jake brake.
No problem with jake brakes, great device, but don't take the dang mufflers off the truck then run around making a huge amount of noise. I also hear the legal trucks but just barely, and have no problem with them or "normal" traffic noise.
So the point is- virtually everyone of those trucks go through a weigh station further west on I-26. Do the "transport cops" there write them a ticket for no mufflers? NOPE. Easy money for the state. It is illegal under both state and federal law to tamper with the exhaust system on vehicles built since 1985 or so. Pretty easy to spot trucks with no mufflers...usually an independent often with those gigantic stacks... So why do they bypass this "easy money" ticket?
BTW my main home is several miles from another interstate and I've never know it was there except for- yep- the illegally modified trucks with no mufflers. Don't even get me started on the dang Harleys, and I'm a biker too, just hate loud unnecessary noise

There is no need for removing the mufflers. I tell drivers it's bad enough to have to drive a big scary truck to make up for you "shortcomings", but adding an ape hanger shifter and removing the baffles is an advertisement not wanted if you're trying to get a date.

Other than excessive noise tickets in municipalities, the only exhaust tickets I've seen here in Maine is for faulty, leaky, systems. They get right on that.

No answer on the exhaust, but you still haven't convinced me, in large part, it's not about money. States vary in enforcement levels too. NY,CT and ME are brutal. We have an officer up here that is worse than that. I always want to tell him I'm not the driver that is sleeping with his wife, because that's the amount of respect he gives us.

It's an engine brake, btw. I've turned a couple towns in to this link just for fun. Build your house on a large hill or major thruway and then tell me not to use a federally passed safety device? I don't think so.:confused2:

Jacobs Vehicle Systems - Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Lt CHEG]

There is no need for removing the mufflers. I tell drivers it's bad enough to have to drive a big scary truck to make up for you "shortcomings", but adding an ape hanger shifter and removing the baffles is an advertisement not wanted if you're trying to get a date.

Other than excessive noise tickets in municipalities, the only exhaust tickets I've seen here in Maine is for faulty, leaky, systems. They get right on that.

No answer on the exhaust, but you still haven't convinced me, in large part, it's not about money. States vary in enforcement levels too. NY,CT and ME are brutal. We have an officer up here that is worse than that. I always want to tell him I'm not the driver that is sleeping with his wife, because that's the amount of respect he gives us.

It's an engine brake, btw. I've turned a couple towns in to this link just for fun. Build your house on a large hill or major thruway and then tell me not to use a federally passed safety device? I don't think so.:confused2:

Jacobs Vehicle Systems - Frequently Asked Questions

Agreed. I've seen the politics of commercial vehicle enforcement first hand and nobody will convince me that it's not about the money. When a municipality has triple the number of homicides in a year than it had the previous year and the chief of police wants to allocate some of the traffic officers to other details related to violent crime reduction for limited amounts of time and is told he can't because it will cost too much that is all the proof I'll ever need. The same goes for federal grants that were used to purchase commercial vehicle enforcement vehicles and equipment which state that the equipment cannot be used for any other purpose and the number of citations generated by use of the equipment must be tracked and reported. Again, we're not talking about the guy rolling down the road with a dump truck full of crushed stone with no cover over it, or the guy who has his equipment on the trailer with nothing more than a couple of ratchet straps when much stronger tie down methods are called for. I'm talking about the tickets for haz mat placards being 3" off center from where they're supposed to be and things of that nature.

I also agree about people who find a piece of property priced very well, but near a major highway. The highway was there first but they complain about the noise of the trucks and traffic, even though they got their land for a good deal. The highway was there first and they knew what they were getting into when they bought the property, too bad for them if they don't like the noise.

 

[JasG]

My brother drove commercial in NC for a few years before moving back here to NY. NC enforcement is according to him nothing. You could tow 50000 lbs with an F-150 and unless you got in an accident they wouldn't do much. Here in NY it has gone from a safety issue to all about the money. Now they set up road blocks and are just looking for anything. These can be for big rigs all the way down to guys with pick up trucks. The great part is when they write a new law in legalese and no one can understand it.

The newest thing I have heard they are going after is the troopers are cracking down on window tint, and licence plate obstructions. By obstructions this can be a bracket that a dealer put on your car, the ball hitch on your bumper, and a bike rack. Basically if any part of the plate can not be seen from any angle, you can get a ticket. This has lead to rumors about getting a ticket for leaving the drawbar in your reciever. Due to the states budget mess they have cut the budget of the troopers, and they need to generate more cash.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I also agree about people who find a piece of property priced very well, but near a major highway. The highway was there first but they complain about the noise of the trucks and traffic, even though they got their land for a good deal. The highway was there first and they knew what they were getting into when they bought the property, too bad for them if they don't like the noise.

I like that. I get complaints from folks around the airport when I take off at 6 am and return at 9 pm. Makes me laugh. They knew the airport was there when they built that house. The airport is over 70 years old. What do they think the airport is there for and why would a company spend millions of dollars on a corporate jet if they can not use it. We fly 3-4 days a week and may are long days that start before day light and do not end till early evening.

Chris

 

[The Haymaker]

I like that. I get complaints from folks around the airport when I take off at 6 am and return at 9 pm. Makes me laugh. They knew the airport was there when they built that house. The airport is over 70 years old. What do they think the airport is there for and why would a company spend millions of dollars on a corporate jet if they can not use it. We fly 3-4 days a week and may are long days that start before day light and do not end till early evening.

Chris

Bangor International Airport has the problem also. Has been a military base since 1941 and newcomers don't like the noise. Then there's those who complain about the Waterville Railroad Yard. Been there since 1849 and now many think the noise and smells are unbearable. Duh....

Thankfully my neighbors haven't said a word about dirtbikes, air cannons, Tannerite, and the "new" Mosin-Nagant(not my video) I just brought home. Of course, I be as respectable as possible with times and occasion.