Ford 1500 Fuel injection Pump, timing or other isue?

[Temblor]

I just purchased a Ford 1500 (Shibaura SD1840) and I was given a Ford 1500 manual with it.. the owner told me it was the same tractor.


The previous owner said tractor would not start and he noticed the water separator was half filled with water, so he thought that the fuel pump might be contaminated with water (and rusted).. so he installed a rebuilt (supposedly) Fuel pump ($700) had the Head resurfaced, a couple new valves (?) 2 injectors, When finished with the work the tractor started, but it ran poorly & did not have power to operate attachments.

This is what I have done so far: Replaced fuel lines, cleaned tank, removed cleaned fuel filter
The tractor starts after cranking on it 60-90 seconds (blue smoke from exhaust as cranking)
BUT it will only run for about a minute or two then it slowly dies! (blue smoke while running. Checked engine compression at glow plugs, have 350lbs & 340 lbs)
If I let it sit a few minutes it will start again only to slowly die again.

I have replaced fuel lines, bypassed tank & Fuel filter, ran fuel directly from jar of diesel to pump and still the same results.
Have talked to a lot of fuel injection rebuild shops..

Next test, I will hook up a 5-9 LB universal inline fuel injection pump, after the fuel filter.
also going to take spring and valve piston from the "delivery valve holder" (on top of pump) turn engine to top dead center and see if fuel gravity flows from pump holder.
(trying to determine easiest way of finding top dead center?)


I also wonder if it was the correct pump replaced as the numbers on pump are different from the original?
Here is a pic of two pumps in case anyone has knowledge or could find out if these pumps are identical?
Problem is if I bring tractor to shop and have them pull pump it will cost at least $700-$800 just to diagnose, get pump off, and then have tested to see it if it is pumping proper volumes, then reinstall.
But an interesting fact, NO test will reveal if the pump is sucking air or not, they just volumes.

Another observation, there is no fuel coming through return hose (from injector to fuel tank)



(The 3rd picture which has clear manufacture red logo on the plate is the original pump (which previous owner said could still be good?)
The pump with the worn metal & no red paint is the replacement from Tractor salvage yard)

So I guess my questions for are:
#1 what is easiest method of finding top dead center on this tractor with valve cover removed?
#2 Does anyone have access to info on these pumps to find out if they are indeed the same?
Thanks

 

[Temblor]

Here is Shop manual on Injection Timing

 

[Temblor]

*Update: I did the 1st phase (in manual) of the Fuel pump timing test.
#1 I put engine on TDC and The timing mark was aligned correctly with pointer)
#2 Removed spring and piston valve from under delivery valve holder on top of pump reinstalled holder.
#3 Turned crank approximately 30 degrees counterclockwise about 2-1/2" past "start of injection timing mark". (Yes, fuel was running out of delivery valve holder)
#4 Turned crank clock wise and the fuel stopped flowing approximately 1" away before the "start of injection timing mark"
If I turn it EXACTLY to the "start of injection timing mark" it actually sucks the remaining fuel back into pump.

So the BIG question; is the timing the problem if indicator is 1" away from the mark on pulley? or is it sufficient?
In other words should fuel stop flowing only after the timing indicator is EXACTLY at the "start of injection timing mark" on the pulley?

So if 1" is significant, maybe the problem I am having with the tractor slowly dying after 2 minutes.. is the pump is slowly starving of fuel because timing is off? then after it sits for 4-5 minutes it will start again because the gravity fed fuel line refills the pump with additional pressure?

Or is my problem elsewhere in this system.. injectors? air sucking in the system somewhere else? Wrong or faulty fuel injectors installed? Cylinder head gasket or valves wrong parts or not installed correctly?

 

[Temblor]

Update (if anyone is reading I hooked up a generic Inline Fuel pump in front of the injection pump, directly from tank (With a strong fuel flow) and had NO change in symptoms other than it started pretty fast, and the engine at full throttle would start run to 2000 RPM then slowly drop down to barely running, then start to cycle back up to about 1500 RPM.. then cycle back down.. after a couple cycles it slowly dies.
I did find out that the "rebuilt" pump installed was from a Shibaura 1800 instead of an SD1840 (which is a Ford 1500) the pump has a different plunger assembly (Barrel & Plunger) and the side cover is on the opposite side of pump. (So I can not access the side cover because it is facing the engine) other than that all parts are the same. Contacted Bosch distributor and several pump rebuild shops and no-one knows whether the difference in the barrel assembly would cause tractor symptoms.

So now I will try #1 remove timing cover myself and check if the valve gear timing and pump timing marks on the gears are correctly lined up & re-set if necessary. If not fixed:
#2 I will re install original pump. (which may not have been defective? per the previous owner) and set timing.. if not fixed:
#3 take into a $105 per hour Ford/new Holland shop and let them try setting timing or diagnose issue

On a separate note.. turns out the previous owner had installed a "complete" engine kit from Southern global including pistons rings bearings seals.. (but unknown if installed correctly!)
Considering this tractor has a newer loader/backhoe installed.. this problem is worth fixing!
Any theories out there, feel free to share them
Thanks

 

[kirkawilson]

Just a shot in the dark, but did you check the fuel tank vent to make sure it's working properly?

 

[Temblor]

Just a shot in the dark, but did you check the fuel tank vent to make sure it's working properly?

Yes loosened tank cap while running. No suction sound, tried pressurizing tank with air as well.

 

[kirkawilson]

One more thought...any blockage in exhaust manifold or muffler that might expand when hot and partially block exhaust path and/or keep exhaust valves from opening properly?

 

[Temblor]

Good suggestion and worth checking, I pulled the Muffler off and still same issue, It did however run a little higer in RPM up to 2500 and I was able to adjust throttle to lower position and it would stay running, then after 90 seconds start to slowly lower in RPM until barely running, then start to re-surge up to 1500 RPM.. it will cycle up & down a couple times like this before it eventually dies.


So now I started to take timing cover off and will check the valve and pump timing.

I found out some new info on the "rebuilt pump" which was purchased and installed on this tractor; The plunger assembly ((Barrel & plunger) are different on this pump from the original! Also I noticed the side cover of pump is on the engine side! so you can not remove the cover to observe whether the mechanism inside is opening and closing properly while tractor is running. (A test that some will use to determine functionality of pump while on the tractor) After contacting a Bosch distributor he was theorizing that this pump (purchased off a Shibaura SD 1800 (My tractor is Shibaura SD1840 or Ford 1500) Southern Global stated this is the same pump, but Bosch dist pointed out the differences. It is unknown whether this difference would cause the symptoms tractor is having?

So the good news is I have the Original Pump and since it may have been mis-diagnosed in the first place when previous owner replaced. ?I am leaning towards reinstalling this pump as my next test.

I also checked the rocker arms at top dead center and they are loose.. ( as opposed to being over tightened as someone a mechanic suggested to check)

 

[kirkawilson]

Another 'armchair' guess would be to check the governor in the injector pump. Here is some previous TBN talk; http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/yanmar/280372-yanmar-1500d-engine-runs-full.html

 

[Temblor]

Have some new info! After pulling the Timing cover off. When I set Idler gear, cam shaft gear and crank shaft gear marks to line up according to the manual (see photo with white dots on marks) the Fuel injection pump marks are way off! (2nd photo from manual shows where marks Should be) I do not know how the tractor could run this far off?
I am pondering to remove Idler gear and turn the pump gear so marks line up. When finished, should I attempt the difficult Spill timing procedure (which uses a dial indicator listed above in repair manual photos) before I reassemble and try to start?
Or I could just try the 1st phase of timing check by using Crankshaft pulley marks?

Question 2.. this book does not show which is the #1 cylinder. I am assuming it is in the front towards radiator? but this engine is a LE802C (as opposed to a LE862C listed in the Ford 1500 repair manual I use) I have heard some Japanese import tractors have the #1 in back?
I need to find top dead center on #1 cylinder to properly do the Spill timing procedure?
The only reference to #1 being the front is from a New Holland manual which shows the #1 pump injection housing description, which I assume #1 injector would go to #1 cylinder?