Ford 1700 and PTO Generator?

[JB4310]

I have a model 1700 ford that I recently bought and was planing on reselling after removing the 6ft rake that came on it. but now I'm thinking of using it's PTO output for a back up electric generating plant.
We rarely loose power but I want to have reliable back up just in case, with a family of 5. We have city water so a well pump is not part of the equation, we have an oil fired boiler for hot water and heat, just one fridge, an electric range, alot of lights, tv's, computer.
There's two scenarios of use, 1st is survival mode, when the power is out and unknown when it would be restored, then it would be used sparingly 1-2 hour intervals 2-3 times a day. the 2nd would be luxury mode when the power is out from a pole down or winter storm etc. then I might run it non stop for 6-8 hours at a time, living like nothing ever happened.
I have gas powered job site generators I use as a contractor, but I want diesel reliability at home for both the above scenarios. I'm thinking of the winco 11 KW they have at Northern or equivalent, I'd never need that much power in survival but probably would use close to that in luxury.
I was looking into stand alone diesel powered gen-sets but they are expensive especially if you want liquid cooling, so since I have the Ford tractor and a back up (JD 4310) all I need is the pto generator, the 1700 puts out 23.3 HP at the PTO according to Nebraska test data, I would mount the generator to a carry all frame and put it in a decent environment for storage taking it out when needed or to test/exercise.
Does anyone know if this tractor would be a good power plant for this application? seems like a stout little 2 cylinder 1.3 liter (Shibaura) engine. From what I've been learning about this subject one big concern is the ability of the engine's governor to keep output current steady enough to not do damage to appliances etc.
The tractor has 2600 hours on it and has to turn 2450 rpm's to get 540 pto speed. one reason I want to go diesel is that I always have 500 plus gallons of #2 on hand, so no gasoline to store.
Sorry for the long winded set up, but any comments, pro or con will be appreciated. John
A couple of pics.

 

[Doc_Bob]

I have the same thoughts. I am going with a stand alone genny. I don't need to have my tractor PTO running at 540 rpm (2300 rpm engine speed) with the chance the tractor will run out of fuel and my injector lines will then suck air. Also, my tractor is 85+ decibels at 2300 rpm. I would not be able to sleep with that noise near my home. Finally, my wife would never be able to hook up the PTO gen, start the tractor, fill it with diesel and know how to bleed the injector lines.

Now, a gasoline fired genny (electric start) with low oil shutoff and gas cans she can handle. She would be "killed" by the tractor thing.
Bob

 

[zionview]

We used our 25kw for remote power for power tools on occasion, just to keep it loose and dry internally. A neighbor didn't use his for 2 years and it wouldn't generate when the power went out. I do like the idea of a gas generator, though. The ones I've been around are much quieter than our PTO powered one, and governed so you don't need full RPMs at partial load. Good Luck, winter's coming!

 

[harwill]

I'm of the school that says the less moving parts, the better. An 1800 RPM generator directly coupled to a diesel engine would be quieter, turn slower and probably consume less fuel. I love the engine in my 1910 and theTC40A but a 10KW gen on a 3 cyl Lombardini was a whole lot cheaper and smaller than an outboard Winco PTO and doesn't put hours on your tractor. Another consideration is how fast the engine governor can respond to load changes. Just remember when the need arises, you'll have to hook all that up on a cold, rainy, dark night dodging lightning bolts and vicious vampires... Well, anyway, you get the point! Just my 2 cents!

 

[JB4310]

I'm of the school that says the less moving parts, the better. An 1800 RPM generator directly coupled to a diesel engine would be quieter, turn slower and probably consume less fuel. I love the engine in my 1910 and theTC40A but a 10KW gen on a 3 cyl Lombardini was a whole lot cheaper and smaller than an outboard Winco PTO and doesn't put hours on your tractor. Another consideration is how fast the engine governor can respond to load changes. Just remember when the need arises, you'll have to hook all that up on a cold, rainy, dark night dodging lightning bolts and vicious vampires... Well, anyway, you get the point! Just my 2 cents!

I agree with you 100% on the 4 pole generators (1800 rpm's) for fuel economy, noise and reliability. I've got a 1/2" thick file on them after all the research I've been doing, they would be my first choice if my needs were greater, we have a company near by that puts together 4 pole sets with 3 cyl liquid cooled yanmar engines as low as 5 KW, I don't agree on the price comparison though, those 5-8 KW units (yanmar, Isuzu, Kubota powered) are close to $5,000. or more, you are paying for a super premium engine don't forget. Northern sells a 7 KW pto for $800.00.
Since this planning could be for a real survival emergency, money is not the primary factor for me, but I'd hate to spend more money on a beautiful machine that's just gonna sit there and require upkeep, I figure the tractor is always maintained in top order and always has fresh fuel etc.
As far as noise goes those gas generators would be louder than the tractors I think and as far as engine wear and tear goes the ford turns 2450 rpm to get the 540 pto speed, at 2450 the ford is not that loud and sounds very smooth and stable, not like it's coming apart or anything, plus the ford is not used for anything else special right now so I'm not worried about putting hours on it. Just want to know if the ford 1700 would be up to the task?
The jury is still out for me, not really sure what's best for me, I have definitely overanalyzed this topic though.
One more thing, does anyone know of other PTO generator companies? I've only found Winco, Tigerpower and Northern even after google search.

 

[Soundguy]

I have one of northern's 12.5kw jobs... I've used on my 8n as well as my 5000.

For sure.. the 8n struggles with a large load and the gov'ner ain't as fast as it used to be.. but for incandescent and loads like power tools.. it's fine. I've hooke dup a freq meter and vom to it.. and in most cases, the power output is as clean or cleaner than my utility feed.

When i run it on a larger tractor.. like my ford 5000.. it's rock solid steady... you can kick on the well pump and nothing flickers.. etc.

I'm not one of those people that has to run my generator all day and all night.. I like it there to keep the fridge cold for a couple hours at a time.. and to pump up some water, and heat it for a shower.. IE.. intermittant use..

I also have mine mounted on a cary-all... real fast hookup.. 3 pins and a pto shaft..

soundguy

 

[AndyMA]

I also say go for the tractor mounted setup. Tractors do not have an issue running at PTO speed for extended periods. One less engien to maintain.
Noise- park a little ways away and cable. Regulation will be fine for appliances unless you overlaod.
Andy

 

[JB4310]

Thanks for the responses everyone, I'm leaning towards the PTO, now does anyone have other sources to compare brands or opinion on the best choice, or does it not make a difference?
I've found Winco, tiger power, Northern, and Imd, does anyone know who make the Northern unit?
As far as noise goes, I also see no reason what so ever to run overnight and was thinking of an over sized muffler to make it a little quieter.
I can't find much on the 1700, there's only a few guys on here with them, I found somewhere that it's 23 H.P. at the pto, seems high to me for a 2 cylinder CUT, but from the reviews that I've seen here and on other searches people swear by them and seem to be almost surprised at how durable they are.

 

[BWBrown]

I guess I'm one on the few 1700 owners. Bought it new in '81, sold it in '87. Liked it so much I bought it back in '93. And yes, the owners/operator manual claims a measured 23hp at the pto.
Bob

 

[daTeacha]

I run my place in emergency mode from a 5000 watt Winco powered by the natural gas pipeline running a 12 hp. Briggs engine. I use wood heat, gas for cooking and hot water. The freezer is only on for limited times as needed, and the referigerator is then off line. Ditto the water pump. I ran separate circuits for the generator powered outlets as part of remodeling project. I could run a bigger unit, but this one cost $25 at auction, complete with all switches and such so it seems a shame to not use it.

I guess what I'm saying is that you probably can get along just fine with less generator, which might make your tractor work better to power it. Personally, I would rather not risk ruining the tractor engine, but dairy farmers around here will run a 100 hp or bigger tractor 24/7 during a power outage to keep the milk flowing and safe, driving compressors and everything else from the tractor powered genny.

 

[Soundguy]

Ruin the tractor engine? How... Tractors are made to run as stationary 'power' units for many operations.. feedmills.. sawmills.. water pumps.. power generation.. belt power.. etc.

Having more genny head that tractor helps protect the generator itself from having to run at max capacity... likewise.. having more tractor than generator capacity puts less stress on the tractor.. in EITHER case it is up to the operator to control the ELECTRICAL LOAD on the genny, thus the mechanical load on the tractor.

Soundguy

 

[daTeacha]

Very true. I was thinking in terms of a compact tractor running essentially unattended for many hours, possibly overheating or something with no one around to monitor what's going on. I don't think the smaller tractors are really meant for the kind of duty cycles a big farm tractor sees, but maybe they are.

 

[Soundguy]

IMHO.. they -SHOULD- be.

I know many people that strap on mowers to SCUT and hit the horse pasture for hours mowing at 'full steam'...

If a tractor can't make it's rated hp for other than intermittant use.. then it should be an automobile.. not a tractor...

Soundguy

Very true. I was thinking in terms of a compact tractor running essentially unattended for many hours, possibly overheating or something with no one around to monitor what's going on. I don't think the smaller tractors are really meant for the kind of duty cycles a big farm tractor sees, but maybe they are.

 

[w8ki]

I have had several jennies and (up to recently) because of furnace demands, have been forced to run them 24/7 during our (semi-routine) winter power outages. Last year I put in a vent free fireplace that did not require current. Because of that one single purchase during the winter, I now only have to run my generator 2-4 hrs at a time; basically just to re-charge the refridge & freezer and/or run the pump ditto for the wifeç—´ TV set, etc.
This past summer, I recently picked up a trailer mounted Winpower PTO generator. She is a 12 kw cont/20kw surge (four pole 1968) model. Although my tractor is not a Ford ;-), she still runs this unit effortlessly <figure apx 2 pto hp per kw> . Indeed, my Alice C only has enough pwr to run her at 12kw but, because the jenny is so oversized on surge capacity- she stays very cool. In order to justify this new purchase to my better half, I had to explain that this unit would run our entire home including our central air. No other jenny that I have/had would. Sure enough, a week later it was 100 degrees in the shade with 99% humidity and we lost power for the entire day. Neither the PTO jenny nor my wife ever complained. On a plus side, she also runs all of my welders without effort. I like the idea of only having one engine to maintain. This also gives my tractor something else to do during summer and winter off-season. With the new ç´*urnace in the home, the pto generator becomes affordable for part time use and quite respectful when you need (or want) all the luxuries.
I still see these show up used on some of the rural auctions. I got mine for $900. She was one of my better investments.
Russ

 

[inseeme]

Look for these things used. I bought a generac 25kw 50 kw surge for 1200 dollars had an electrician check it out he said appeared to be in excellent condition. Have a kubota m6800 that has no problem spinning it and it will run my whole house with ease. Been a great insurance policy though bought it last year had my house wired for it and have not lost power since, before we would lose power monthly. Take care.

 

[JB4310]

Follow up, well I finally got my 10 kw pto generator, it's an IMD, a small company from South Carolina. I've been learning alot on the few threads I've been following here on the subject and it's very interesting almost like a hobby.
I had a chance to test it out and it seems pretty good, I shut off utility power to my shop and and repowered with the genny, I have a 5kw electric heater in there so that was a good load to test it with and lights etc, probably had 8 kw drawn on the generator, the older Ford did not fully compensate ford the load, had to throttle it up a little to keep the 60hrtz, the newer JD did better.
You can really hear that thing make the juice, one thing I was a little surprised about was that my 5 hp compressor would not start up until I let the air almost completely out, even with mostly everything else off, I don't understand this as it is plugged into just a 20 amp circuit and has no problem on utility power, the gen is putting out 40 amps on each leg, I know that these motors draw alot more on start up but I would think that the gen should handle it or the shop circuit breaker wouldn't handle it???

some pics, I got it with this carrier but had to mod it to work with the i-match on the JD, also had to extend the 3 pt arms on the Ford by moving the attachment rearward so the shaft would be closer on both tractors, otherwise I would have to cut more off the shaft for it to work on the ford, does any one know why or what that option would be used for? it moves the 3 pt arms from under the axle to even with the axle, same as the sway stabilizer attachment point.

 

[Soundguy]

Check your voltage when you kick on that compressor motor. While a good comp motor can draw 2x startup.. I've seen poor designs that draw 3X!!

Also.. many are quite voltage intolerant. We had a water pump we ran ont he job from a portable genny. we normally used a 5kw genny to power it but the guys grabbed a 4250 and went out that day.. pump didn't even try to kick on.. voltage check showed genny was dropping to 208v and the pump didn't like it..

it's possible ont he extreme loads that your governor doesn't have enough adjustment to compensate for no load to max load throttle requirements...

don't feel bad.. my old 8n didn't handle 0-full load changes as gracefully either.. took one of my larger diesels to make it 'play nice'.

still.. nice looking setup you got there.. thanks for posting the pics.

soundguy

 

[JC-jetro]

Follow up, well I finally got my 10 kw pto generator, it's an IMD, a small company from South Carolina. I've been learning alot on the few threads I've been following here on the subject and it's very interesting almost like a hobby.

John,

It looks good. It seems you'll put that ole mule of yours (1700) to work to earn it's keep. Have you tried to tie your system back to the electric grid and make some money?

JC,

 

[JB4310]

I'm still fine tuning the set ups, I'll post some more pics next week with it hooked up and running, it could be off on the voltage a little as the needle style hertz meter is no good, it's stable with no load but jumps around even with a small load, I know it's the meter because the voltage output is very stable until I really load it up. The company is sending me a newer style led meter for the unit and a plug in ac outlet meter as well to keep me happy. The only other issue was some cheap fluorescent lights flickering,
This did take quite a lot of my time lately, with the order and replacement, along with some needed accessories as well as education, but this is my slow time and like I said it's been like a hobby, it's a good thing when hobbies can also have productive benefits on the side, as opposed to say stamp collecting (no offence).
Hey JC, how ya doing, no I'm not thinking of selling power back to the utility company but I have read a lot recently about people living off the grid, don't know if I could ever do that as it takes a great amount of commitment, but it's very interesting. I am seriously thinking about a good size inverter and a small pallet of batteries to start with, so who knows...

 

[harwill]

JB4310 asked for another generator source - How about Dayton from Grainger? Or is that a Winco rebadged? Has anybody used one of the standalone ST gen heads and fabbed your own gear-up from 540 to 1800? Given enough tractor horsepower I suppose you gear-up for a slower PTO RPM and still turn the gen at 1800. Just a thought.