Ford 601 Workmaster PTO Problem

[swampdog]

This weekend I was bush hogging and stopped the Tractor and turned off the PTO. I then drove about 100yds and noticed a whining noise from the rear end area which I have never heard before, I then tried to engage the PTO but was unable to. It would make a grinding sound like it was almost engaged but not completely. The lever was very hard to move and I was afraid if put to much pressure on it I would brake it. Should I just force the lever and see what happens? I don't know if it makes any difference, I had also hit a very large rock just before I stopped that seemed to almost stall the Tractor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Soundguy]

1, i'd double check what kind of shear protection your mower has. a rock that nearly stopepd you should have sheared the shear pin or slipped a slip clutch.

since it didn't.. it may have actually bent the rear spline on the pto shaft.. this could do 2 things.. 1, when you turned it off, it may not have turned off all the way and may have chewed up the sliding coupler.. and / or the bend now prevents the sliding coupler from moving all the way.

I'd pull the plate with the shifter in it and take a looksee.

soundguy

 

[swampdog]

UPDATE: I had a chance to look into the problem and discovered that PTO shift shaft is stuck and doesn't move more than 1/8". I even put a little extra leverage on the lever and it still wouldn't move. I took the plate off and can see the shaft but no visible damage, but I can't see the whole shaft very good. I'm not sure what the next step should be. Remove PTO shaft? How do you get the PTO shift shaft out. I have a manual but all it shows is the shaft components but no instructions on how to remove it. Help?

 

[whodat526]

remove the four bolts in the back of the tractor that is around the pto shaft and it will come out there then with the pto shift lever cover out u can remove the sliding collar and check it also

 

[Soundguy]

keep in mind you need to drain the hyds and diffy BEFORE you pull the pto shaft..

 

[swampdog]

UPDATE: I pulled the PTO Shaft tonight and it looks fine, no twist. I can move the shift lever easily with the PTO removed. When I put PTO back I can't move the lever anymore. It seems that the problem is with the gear on the end of the PTO and the gear it meshes with which I guess comes from the Transmission. I'm not sure how to get a good look at those gears. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Soundguy]

is the very back of the pto shaft splined area chewed or damaged in any way.. .. even a SLIGHT twist will cause a hard engagement.

also.. is there any slop fore / aft of the pto shaft in the bearing carrier? if so, the wear ring may have slipped or the bearing is loose. this will let the pto shaft move fore and aft and in many cases 'walk' itself out of engagement.. this usually chews the end up. Also.. and especially if the driveline is too long.. or not lubed, the pto shaft end ( aft end at the coupler int he tractor ), can beat backwards ad MUSHROOM deform, and be difficult to engage. use a mic on the splines front to back. in some cases.. taking a flat file to very mildly mushroomed or slightly twisted splines will make them wor.

if the pto shaft looks true, next look at the sliding dog clutch.. part #12 in the diagram I'm attaching.

here's the parts listing to go with the diagram.

ps.. you can remove that or peer in to inspect it pretty easilly.

good luck.. hope it helps

soundguy

1 1 NAA770A Support, PTO, NAA, NAB, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
1 1 NCA770A SUPPORT Support, PTO W/4-Speed Transmission, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1955
1 1 NDA770B Support, PTO W/5-Speed Transmission, All Purpose & 900 Row Crop, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1955-12/31/1959
2 AR NAA722A STOP Stop, PTO Shifter
3 1 9N719 Rail, PTO Shifter, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
3 1 NCA719A SIDE RAIL Rail, PTO Shifter, Except NAA, Start Year: 01/01/1955
4 AR PL PROCURE LOCALLY Washer, Lock, 3/8"
5 1 PL PROCURE LOCALLY NUT,3/8-24, Hex, Start Year: 01/01/1953
6 1 797234 SPRING SPRING, PTO Shifter, Rail Mesh, NAA, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
6 1 83407013 SPRING SPRING, PTO Shifter, Rail Mesh, Except NAA, Start Year: 01/01/1955
7 1 145222 BALL BALL, 3/8", Steel, Start Year: 01/01/1953
8 1 PL PROCURE LOCALLY BOLT, 3/8-16 x 1 1/4", Start Year: 01/01/1953
9 1 233274 SEAL Seal Assy., Transmission Countershaft, Start Year: 01/01/1953
10 1 NLS No Longer Serviced Fork, PTO Shifter {NAA720A}, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
10 1 NCA720A FORK Fork, PTO Shifter, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1955
11 1 128999 O-RING O-Ring, -111, 70 Duro, .424" ID x .103" Thk, Shifter Fork, W/NAA720A, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
11 1 14457281 O-RING O-Ring, -114, Cl 7, .612" ID x .103" Thk, Shifter Fork, W/NCA720A, Start Year: 01/01/1955
12 1 NAA717A SLEEVE Sleeve, PTO Clutch, 2.16" Overall Length, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
12 1 NCA717A SLEEVE Sleeve, PTO Clutch, Except NAA, 2.16" Overall Length, Start Year: 01/01/1955
13 2 9N754 RING Ring, PTO Bearing Snap, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
14 1 210064 BALL BEARING BEARING, BALL, Assy, PTO Shifter & Shaft, Optional W/B & C, NAA, NAB, Replaces 9N715B, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
15 1 9N723 LEVER Lever, PTO Shifter, Except Offset, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1953
15 1 312844 LEVER Lever, PTO Shifter, Offset Only, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1959
16 1 60518S RIVET Rivet, Button Hd, 1/4" x 1-1/4", Start Year: 01/01/1953
17 1 NAA721D Plate, PTO Shifter, NAA, Replaces P/N NAA721C, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
17 1 NCA721B Plate, PTO Shifter, Except NAA, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1955
18 AR PL PROCURE LOCALLY Nut, Hex, 7/16"-20
19 2 PL PROCURE LOCALLY Stud, 7/16"-14-20 x 1.68, NAA, Start Year: 01/01/1953
2 PL PROCURE LOCALLY Stud, 7/16"-14-20 x 1.68, Except NAA, Start Year: 01/01/1955
20 2 PL PROCURE LOCALLY Stud, 7/16"-14-20 x 1.3/8", NAA, Years: 01/01/1953-12/31/1954
4 PL PROCURE LOCALLY Stud, 7/16"-14-20 x 1.25, Except NAA, Start Year: 01/01/1955
1 PL PROCURE LOCALLY Pin, 5/8" x 1/2", L/PTO All Purpose Heavy Duty Industrial, Start Year: 01/01/1955
1 353081S BALL BALL, 5/16", Steel Offset Only, Start Year: 01/01/1959
1 NDA784A RETAINER Retainer, PTO Countershaft W/5-Speed Transmission, All Purpose & 900 Row Crop, No Longer Serviced, Years: 01/01/1955-12/31/1959
1 C0NN4022A Vent Assy., Air, PTO Shifter Plate, L/PTO, All Purpose & Heavy Duty, No Longer Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1955
1 9N4131 GASKET Gasket, Shifter Plate Cover to Housing, Start Year: 01/01/1953
1 86613266 CUP Cup, Transmission Countershaft Rear, Bearing W/5-Speed Transmission, Years: 01/01/1955-12/31/1959

 

[swampdog]

Soundguy: Thanks for the good information. The end of the ahaft looks good, no scrathes or marks of any kind. I will measure in the morning to make sure it isn't mushroomed. Regarding the clutch Dog, I can feel this with my hand thru the side when I removed the side plate and shift lever, Should I be able to pull this out? It looks like according the diagram there is a snap ring in the way. I have a shop manual (your reccomendation from an earlier post)

 

[swampdog]

It does seem that the PTO shaft does have a slight twist in it now that I have had a chance to examine it in better light attached, are the pictures. Is it possible that even this little of a twist can cause the problems I am having? You have to look at it from just the right angle to see the twist.

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. it's slight. here's the issue.. from the beginning of the twist to the end of the twist. if there is more distance that the splines have moved in reference to a parallel line that they should be on.. if that difference is more than the tolerance fit between the sliding coupler .. then it will cause a problem

you could dye and slide together and see where it removes the dye.. or try to hand fit and tap it in and ovserve.

I might try to file the pto shaft a hair to true it up. it's a 100$ gamble at most.. and your twist is VERY slight.

file a lil then check.

and yes.. 2 rings and a support bearing back there..

feel in there first to see if the leading edge of the internal splines are damaged.. might use a strong lamp from the rear.. or snake light / mirror..

soudnguy

 

[swampdog]

UPDATE: I had a little time to work on the PTO problem today and here are my observations. Filed a little on the shaft hoping it would help, but didn't. I put the shaft back in and the lever moves back and forth about 2-3 inches but will not completely disengage. Which is the opposite of my original problem, I couldn't get it to go in gear before.The PTO is spinning all the time and can't be disengaged. I took it back apart and with the 4 bolts removed that hold the PTO shaft in place I moved the PTO lever back and forth and when the lever is almost to the fully disengaged position it pushed the shaft out the back of the tractor about 3/4". I then removed the shaft completely and put some grease in the splines so I could tell how far onto it the gear was going, about 1". My unprofessional opinion is that due to the slight twist in the PTO shaft it is preventing the gear from moving back and forth freely on the PTO shaft to completely engage and disengage the PTO. I will have a new PTO shaft one day next week to try. Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Soundguy]

yep. theat twist, even though it is slight, is eating up all the clearance that the sliding coupler has from side to side of the splines.. it's exactly what I expected.

more filing would likely yeild a working piee, albiet one without a good full fit.. an ok temp farm fix.. but you are doing it right if replacing the shaft.

soundguy

 

[swampdog]

FINAL UPDATE:
Finally I had time to install the new PTO shaft yesterday and it works great. The PTO shifts easier than it ever did before which leads me to believe that it has always had a slight twist until I made it worse when I hit the big rock that put more twist in it. With the new shaft it goes in and out of gear very easily. Thanks to all who offered help.

 

[Soundguy]

glad to hear it.

lucky for you it wan't an N series, or that twist would have made you cut the shaft ahead and possibly behind the pump to get it all out.

soundguy

 

[Denwa]

FINAL UPDATE:
Finally I had time to install the new PTO shaft yesterday and it works great. The PTO shifts easier than it ever did before which leads me to believe that it has always had a slight twist until I made it worse when I hit the big rock that put more twist in it. With the new shaft it goes in and out of gear very easily. Thanks to all who offered help.

Have seen no mention of sheer bolt or slip clutch problem that led to your twisted shaft. Hopefully you have corrected that issues so you don't have to keep a spare shaft in stock ;' >

Dennis

Brotherhood of the busted PTO's
(in my case the previous owner had replaced a butter bolt on the mower with a grade 8 machine bolt and I had to fix all sorts of stuff)

 

[Soundguy]

i had asked about that before when he said he hit something that was able to stal the tractor.. it really shouldn't have been able to with proper shear protection.

it also sounds like the shaft already had a slight twist in it, and got worse on the last 'hit'.

I hope he DOES address the shear bolt issue before he damages any other parts though.

soundguy

 

[kraffty]

Soundguy...you sound like the guy I need to talk to.....I have a 1450 Ford tractor and the PTO is very hard to engage and when the brush hog hits even tall grass it jumps right out of gear. If I hold the lever forward very hard I can get it to stay engaged and then it starts to jump a lot so I pulled it out of gear (PTO) to avoid grinding teeth or whatever is inside there....IS there an adjustment for the PTO engagement lever or do you think I have some kind of internal problem.
Any held someone can give me will be appreciated.

 

[Soundguy]

is ther ein / out play on the pto shaft ( check with machine off )

if so.. that thrust play will walk most pto dog clutches out of engagement, eventually chew the splined sliding collar and end of the shaft.. and many times mushroom the end of the shaft from it banging back.

post back.

a 1450? not familiar with it..