Ford 9N Electrical Issue

[Rockfootball47]

My Ford 9N has been running rough the past four months. Basically it would sputter or drop in power every 5 seconds while mowing (not excessively high grass, maybe 3-4"). At first I just moved the throttle just beyond the highest bump on the throttle adjustment on the steering column to give it more power and this worked fine. But the past couple weeks that didn't even help. Still would run fine and drop in power for a second or two every 5 seconds. I always made sure there was enough gas and the sediment bowl valve was open enough. The last time I ran it I noted that this issue did not occur when I held the choke out about 1/4 of full pull.

Now the new issue is it won't even start. When I push the start button the ammeter goes from 10A to 0A and I here a small click. At first I thought maybe it was a low charge on the battery so I charged it and tried again and had the same effect. Then I tried a new battery I had from my dads 8N and the same result. At this point I did see a little smoke come up from the backside of the instrument panel (note that the small hood door was open). My guess was maybe the resistor blew.

As far as I can tell none of the electric wires have been replaced within the past couple of decades and I am planning on using the tractor to clear my driveway this winter so I was already thinking about doing a 12V conversion. Should I just go ahead and buy the parts for that then start diagnosing the issue?

I appreciate any input

 

[Rockfootball47]

I took a look at the wiring and found that the distributor wire was wired incorrectly on the resistor. It was wired directly onto the same stud/terminal as the ignition wire so the resistor was bypassed. I wired it back up correctly, onto the left terminal of the resistor, and tried to start it. When I try to start it in this configuration I noticed that the ammeter goes from +10 to 0 where as in the past it always went from -10 to 0. I also heard a hissing coming from around the battery/resistor. My guess was the resistor was fried so I wired everything up to an extra resistor I had from my dads 8N. Still have the same issue even with the new resistor.

The previous owner painted the tractor with most of the wires still attached so I think I will go ahead and replace the wiring harness to see if that helps.

 

[Soundguy]

right now you are just changing wires andf doing lots of guessing.

a front mount like that uses a ressitor block with 3 posts. a lower one and 2 top ones. the resistor is between t he 2 top ones.

charge wire from genny cutout lands on that small post, and then heads thru the ammeter ( either wire thru a loop, or in 1 terminal and out the other ), and then to the battery hot usually via the hot lead on the manual starter switch.

from the bottom post on the block, a wire runs to the key switch, and then from the key to a top post on the resistor. the other top post on the resistor to the coil.

that's the ignition.

starting.

you have a big thumb switch that won't push unless you are in neutral., that manually pushes a rod thru the steering column that then pushes a switch mounted intot he back of the column. the back side of that switch is what you see with the 2 studs on the steering column. one side goes to battery and the other goes to the starter. ( your charge line is on the side going to battery ).

check all connections and terminal ends.. especially ground. rusty and painted sheet metal is not a good ground.

 

[Rockfootball47]

I have replaced all wires except the one leading from what I think you called the gen cutout to the generator. The connector was too rusted to come off easily so I decided to leave it for now since the wire looked okay and I figured the generator shouldn't have anything to do with the tractor starting or the starter cranking. Hope that wasnt a bad decision ><.

Even after replacing all of the wires and cleaning all connections it still won't start. Please note hat I also replaced the starter cable, negative battery cable and ground strap along with cleaning the portion of the column where the ground attaches very well and using dielectric grease on all connections. With the ignition on the ammeter still reads 0A and jumps a few in the positive direction when I press the start button. Note that when I press the start button I hear a small click in the starter and that's it. Nothing else.

Oh and the ammeter my tractor has isn't the loop style. It has two posts instead. But it is wired correction from the start button watch to the lower resistor post.

I have also confirmed ground on other parts of the body so the ground is attached properly. I also check continuity and voltage at the start button switch you mention above both before and while I push the start button with no continuity reading and no voltage.

So my best guess is that the start button switch or starter at fault.

 

[boggen]

your initial paragraph to me denotes ya need to adjust the carb. and/or possibly need to clean it or rebuild it. along with checking for a possible "screen / filter" that might set in the bottom of the gas tank. (make sure it is clean). you may or may not have a screen in bottom the gas tank.

if you are using any fuel additives such as carb cleaners / engine cleaners / fuel boosters / power busters / etc... that you might find at a local gas station, those can also be an issue. just run straight cheap gas.

 

[Soundguy]

hard to fault the starter if you read no voltage to the start switch. and if no voltage to the switch.. hard to fault the switch!

so far i'm wondering if you are using your meter correctly.


and to answer a prev question. no.. the generator does not directly matter on starting.

you could remove the generator completely and just start and run off the battery.


I also question your wireing if the ammeter does not register ignition current.

reread my post and check your wiring.

also check battery and conenctions.. and make sure you are using your meter correctly.

 

[Rockfootball47]

hard to fault the starter if you read no voltage to the start switch. and if no voltage to the switch.. hard to fault the switch!

so far i'm wondering if you are using your meter correctly.

To make sure I am using the multimeter correctly, with it on 20V DC where should I have the probes when confirming the start button switch is working correctly?

With the multimeter on the continuity setting I put a probe on each post on the start button switch and then pushed the start button with the tractor in neutral. Since it didn't "beep", to me that should be a dead ringer for the problem but again I'm not the expert.

When I replaced all of the wires I used 14 gauge wire. Could that have something to do with my problem?

and to answer a prev question. no.. the generator does not directly matter on starting.

you could remove the generator completely and just start and run off the battery.


I also question your wireing if the ammeter does not register ignition current.

reread my post and check your wiring.

also check battery and conenctions.. and make sure you are using your meter correctly.

I have been confirming the wiring against the following diagram (See below) I found online since I have a difficult time deciphering the standard electronic wiring diagrams listed in the IT Shop Manual.

http://www.tntwebdevelopment.com/tff/images/diagram.gif

After my last post I decided to reconnect the resistor from my dads 8N to see if it would make a difference. Of course it didn't. The ammeter still read 0A (not volts, typo) then jumped a few in the positive direction when I pressed the start button. THEN I decided to try "jumping" the starter to bypass the start button. I disconnected the starter cable end from the start button switch and touched it to the negative battery cable. Of course it didn't start but I did notice that the ammeter all of a sudden started sitting on the negative side with the ignition on and as soon as I pressed the start button it jumped to 0A. This is how my tractor has ALWAYS been for whatever odd reason.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense but it's just something I noticed.

Is there a concrete way to confirm whether the starter is at fault? Could I install he starter from my dads 8N, since it's already removed while I'm restoring his tractor, to see if that makes a difference?

 

[JimRB]

Loss of power when th eengine running is one question. Failure to spin the starter is another issue. Bad wiring can be yet another issue. The starter could have seized up brushes, crummy positive lead or crummy ground. Click usually is the starter solenoid pulling in to where the starter should spin. Could be a bad solenoid, bad starter brushes, bad big wires or the moon phase.

Loss of power when running could be incorrect points gap or a bad condenser. It could also be a gummed up carb.

How a ballast resistor works. Sound Guy might have already said this. Coil is designed to run on a little less than 6 volts (well maybe not but lets pretend). A battery in good shape is 2.1 volts per cell so a good battery is 6.3 volts and more volts when charging. When you run the starter the battery voltage dips down. Say it dips down to 5 volts. There is a wire from the starter switch that goes to both the starter solenoid to engage it and directly to the coil so the coil gets as much voltage as it can get which is not a lot when the starter motor is running. It would be even less if the only source of primary voltage was through a ballast resister. When the engine starts the voltage goes up, the voltage from the starter solenoid wire goes away and the coil is running off the wire from the ignition switch which is supposed to run through the ballast resistor and drop that voltage down.

A google search says I am wrong, sort of, or maybe a lot. Read down to 383man who explains it,

Lots of could be's going on.

 

[JimRB]

Ammeter reads amps, not volts. 0 means not charging and not discharging. A voltmeter reads volts.

Possibly oops on that ramble about the ballast resistor. That is how it works on some of the cars I have worked on when I was a kids.

8N Maintenance and Repairs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJmODplxRs0

 

[Soundguy]

Sorry, but much of that post is not correct for the tractor we are talking about, 9n and 2n dint have starter solenoids, and thus don't have ignition bypass wireing, its extremely unhelpfull to give incorrect advice in a tractor that you are unfamiliar with. In addition to having to correct that advice and get the op diagnosing the problem is too much typing for me on a phone, thus I'm bowing out of the thread, no reason for me to waste time typing here when others are going to post info incorrect for this model.

Loss of power when th eengine running is one question. Failure to spin the starter is another issue. Bad wiring can be yet another issue. The starter could have seized up brushes, crummy positive lead or crummy ground. Click usually is the starter solenoid pulling in to where the starter should spin. Could be a bad solenoid, bad starter brushes, bad big wires or the moon phase.

Loss of power when running could be incorrect points gap or a bad condenser. It could also be a gummed up carb.

How a ballast resistor works. Sound Guy might have already said this. Coil is designed to run on a little less than 6 volts (well maybe not but lets pretend). A battery in good shape is 2.1 volts per cell so a good battery is 6.3 volts and more volts when charging. When you run the starter the battery voltage dips down. Say it dips down to 5 volts. There is a wire from the starter switch that goes to both the starter solenoid to engage it and directly to the coil so the coil gets as much voltage as it can get which is not a lot when the starter motor is running. It would be even less if the only source of primary voltage was through a ballast resister. When the engine starts the voltage goes up, the voltage from the starter solenoid wire goes away and the coil is running off the wire from the ignition switch which is supposed to run through the ballast resistor and drop that voltage down.

A google search says I am wrong, sort of, or maybe a lot. Read down to 383man who explains it,

Lots of could be's going on.