Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming?

   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #141  
houstonscott said:
Volkswagen Cross Coupe concept updated for Geneva motor show - Autoweek

131mpg and it's an 4x4 SUV. Prius is why behind. The question is will the democrats with all their regulation let them sell it here? Lots is possible without regulations.

HS

Has nothing to do with regulations. It's a VW Diesel similar to those you can buy at your dealer except for the electric bits. I'm sure it will pass pollution and crash tests Thanks for posting the link as I've been waiting for a plug-in Diesel electric hybrid! Now we'll see if VW thinks it will sell here. The only reason the Volt, etc. does not have a Diesel is because Americans are too stupid to get past their opinions of Diesels thanks to the botched American car Diesels of the '70's.
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #142  
I'm not sure what your post has to do with the Prius's crumple zones but I can tell you this about opinions and references.

For every published opinion you find saying this, you will find another saying that, for example:

It's Official: SUVs Are Safer Than Cars (Well, Mostly)

I make every effort to find and cite a credible source of information (a left over practice from my college days) and not the opinion of a special interest group. Take the above link, it presents information from a credible source, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

Take a look at this one, a study done by the University of Michigan:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/teepa/pdf/TRB_Safety_1-03.pdf

My point is if you are going to reference to support an opinion, then please reference a credible source. It doesn't take much more effort to find credible information.

Both of these links provide credible study data but neither supports your opinion or the claim of the detroitporject which is lacking references to credible data to support their opinions.

I thank you for your public service and I realize it takes a special person to deal with the tragedies you see but you do only see the worst of it and not the typical.

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Fatalities

Before You Buy An Suv... | Rollover | FRONTLINE | PBS
How serious is the motor vehicle rollover problem in the U.S. today?
Single-vehicle rollovers (for all vehicles, not just SUVs) cause more fatalities than any other kind of motor-vehicle accident -- one-quarter of all deaths yearly. In 1999, 63 percent of all SUV deaths were in rollovers.

Do SUVs have higher rollover rates than other types of vehicles?
Yes. In 2000, SUVs had the highest rollover involvement rate of any vehicle type in fatal crashes -- 36 percent, as compared with 24 percent for pickups, 19 percent for vans and 15 percent for traffic cars. SUVs also had the highest rollover rate for passenger vehicles in injury crashes -- 12 percent, as compared to 7 percent for pickups, 4 percent for vans and 3 percent for passenger cars.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...9870l0l5143381l13l13l0l3l3l0l367l1695l3-5l5l0.

In the following study they only counted the driver death. It didn't count the family members or work crew that died or the people in the other vehicle that were run over by the SUV. I was going to come up with some correlation for the method but I couldn't come up with any that made a bit of sense. Their thinking is skewed.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/suvs-now-least-likely-for-rollover-crashes.html
Each year, from 2006 through 2009, drivers of newer SUVs suffered an average of 28 deaths per million vehicles, according to the Institute. That's about half the average driver death rate for cars, which was 56.

The Institute only counts the driver's death even if multiple people died in the vehicle that crashed. By doing this, multi-passenger vehicles can be more fairly compared to those that carry fewer people.


In this report 32,788 people died in the U.S. in 2010. If you read the links above you would see that about 10,000 people died in rollovers. Rollovers are only 6% of accidents but cause a third of deaths. Look at the visor of a SUV. It warns you it "will happen" if you do certain dumb acts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/us/01driving.html
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr060210.html


If you read all my posts on this topic you will see I try not to repeat the same sources each time I reference a link.
From what I see reported SUV's and pickups are more dangerous than passenger cars. A bit of personal experience with that also.
I didn't reference the Pickup fatalities. They are similar to SUV stats as I have referenced in prior posts. I can't do all the work for you. You have read everything not what you can pick apart.
Most SUV' are getting safer. Mostly. Like your link says.
 
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   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #143  
A $40k Fungus? Quoting Tim "the tool man" Taylor's sidekick Al Borland, "I don't think so Tim."

Another solution in search of a problem?
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #144  
I question that mileage unless their test loop is downhill.
larry

"combined fuel consumption of 131 mpg"

When they are saying "combined" they are including the the power that is required to charge the battery.

The report goes on to say:
"With the claimed 131 mpg, the vehicle's range stretches to 800 miles in hybrid mode on its 14.5-gallon fuel tank."
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #145  
"combined fuel consumption of 131 mpg"

When they are saying "combined" they are notincluding the the power that is required to charge the battery.

The report goes on to say:
"With the claimed 131 mpg, the vehicle's range stretches to 800 miles in hybrid mode on its 14.5-gallon fuel tank."
I cant make any sense of that as stated -- unless you mean not. Its probably a 50mi test loop and they run the batts down during the loop and limp to the finish at 131mpg with near dead batts, having only run the engine for 20mi or so of the 50. ... 800/14.5 = 55mpg. Hybrid doesnt help past the initial battery depletion except momentary acceleration. Still quite good for a "hot" car.
larry
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #146  
I cant make any sense of that as stated -- unless you mean not. Its probably a 50mi test loop and they run the batts down during the loop and limp to the finish at 131mpg with near dead batts, having only run the engine for 20mi or so of the 50. ... 800/14.5 = 55mpg. Hybrid doesnt help past the initial battery depletion except momentary acceleration. Still quite good for a "hot" car.
larry

55mpg isnt bad, but when you consider the added cost of being a "hybrid" and added weight........

Why not just buy a regular VW diesel, like a jetta TDI and have no problems getting 50+, and never have to worry about the "hybrid" stuff????

I think that is why they arent selling. Just not enough of a MPG improvement to justify the added cost.

And I too would like to know how they got the 131mpg number. But specs can be made to say whatever you want right?? Heck, I can drive my 8000lb 4x4 DRW truck down a hill and let off the pedal and reset the trip at the same time. I have no problems maintaining 99MPG (which is as high as it will read) for a good 2 miles:D
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #147  
Volkswagen Cross Coupe concept updated for Geneva motor show - Autoweek

131mpg and it's an 4x4 SUV. Prius is why behind. The question is will the democrats with all their regulation let them sell it here? Lots is possible without regulations.

HS

Volkswagen Cross Coupe Concept looks slick, is not a coupe


The problem with "concept" cars is the bugs that are yet to be worked out. It won't be available till 2014 maybe and nobody has a price point yet. I'm guessing $45,000.
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #148  
I cant make any sense of that as stated -- unless you mean not. Its probably a 50mi test loop and they run the batts down during the loop and limp to the finish at 131mpg with near dead batts, having only run the engine for 20mi or so of the 50. ... 800/14.5 = 55mpg. Hybrid doesnt help past the initial battery depletion except momentary acceleration. Still quite good for a "hot" car.
larry

In most well designed hybrid battterys the discharge is not allowed to drop below 30% "Prius". I don't understand your "Hybrid doesnt help past the initial battery depletion except momentary acceleration"., statement.
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #149  
I forgot to ask earlier....Anyone have any experience with the new hyundai hybrid???

I just seen the commercial again last night. Offering a LIFETIME warrenty on the hybrid battery:thumbsup: I know if I decide to buy a hybrid, that would ease my mind a good bit about that.

Lets see if it would be worth it. Direct from fueleconomy.gov

Hyundai Sonata hybrid..................37MPG combined.........~$26k MSRP
Hyundai Sonata (NON hybrid).........28MPG combined.........~$20k MSRP

Hybrid @ 37MPG and assuming $4/gal gas, costs 10.8cents per mile to drive.
NON-hybrid @ 28MPG ....................................14.3 cents per mile

So the hybrid costs 6K more. And at a savings of 3.5 cents per mile would take 172,000 miles to re-coupe the inital 6k price difference.

Still not worth it in my book.

I will note though that the hybrid listed only ONE MSRP figure so I dont know what options that included. The standard sonata listed a range of 19.8k-28k. So if similarly equipped and the cost differences is less than 6k, well that will make my numbers different. If only a 2k price difference, the cost-of-payback in miles would only be 1/3 of the 172k miles....or 58000 miles. THAT might make it worth it.

Similarly, the civic and civic hybrid show a 12MPG combined difference. And again, the hybrid just lists 24k msrp, and the standard lists a range of 16k-23k. So the price difference could be as much as 8k for the 12mpg. But I just dont know the options for the hybrid and how they relate to the mspr.

And also, if you are like me, and do mostly highway driving, the benefits diminish. The rated HWY mpg of the civic vs hybrid show only a 5MPG bump for the hybrid, and the same for the sonata.

Just food for thought
 
   / Ford Focus Hated. Who did not see this coming? #150  
I forgot to ask earlier....Anyone have any experience with the new hyundai hybrid???

I just seen the commercial again last night. Offering a LIFETIME warrenty on the hybrid battery:thumbsup: I know if I decide to buy a hybrid, that would ease my mind a good bit about that.

Lets see if it would be worth it. Direct from fueleconomy.gov

Hyundai Sonata hybrid..................37MPG combined.........~$26k MSRP
Hyundai Sonata (NON hybrid).........28MPG combined.........~$20k MSRP

Hybrid @ 37MPG and assuming $4/gal gas, costs 10.8cents per mile to drive.
NON-hybrid @ 28MPG ....................................14.3 cents per mile

So the hybrid costs 6K more. And at a savings of 3.5 cents per mile would take 172,000 miles to re-coupe the inital 6k price difference.

Still not worth it in my book.

I will note though that the hybrid listed only ONE MSRP figure so I dont know what options that included. The standard sonata listed a range of 19.8k-28k. So if similarly equipped and the cost differences is less than 6k, well that will make my numbers different. If only a 2k price difference, the cost-of-payback in miles would only be 1/3 of the 172k miles....or 58000 miles. THAT might make it worth it.

Similarly, the civic and civic hybrid show a 12MPG combined difference. And again, the hybrid just lists 24k msrp, and the standard lists a range of 16k-23k. So the price difference could be as much as 8k for the 12mpg. But I just dont know the options for the hybrid and how they relate to the mspr.

And also, if you are like me, and do mostly highway driving, the benefits diminish. The rated HWY mpg of the civic vs hybrid show only a 5MPG bump for the hybrid, and the same for the sonata.

Just food for thought

Looking at the Sonata comparison feature on the Hyundai website, it appears that the Hybrid is a bit fancier than the GLS gas model and that the difference between those two is about $4K without adding power seats and a fancier climate control system to the GLS. I'd think those features are probably worth a grand so the difference in price is really more like $3000 or maybe less.

The biggest issue though is the one you point out with regard to highway travel. The hybrid is rated at 40mpg while the very fine direct injection gas Sonata gets 35. Where the two really differ is in the city driving cycle where the hybrid gets 35 and the gasser 24. For someone who commutes into a big city with stop and go traffic the hybrid might make more sense but the new Sonata DI gas engine is so efficient already that for highway miles it probably is no benefit.

Using your comparison calculations, with a 11mpg advantage @$4/gallon it would take 58,000miles of urban driving to pay back $3K. Not too bad considering the life time of the car and risk of even higher gas costs.

On the other hand, for someone who does primarily highway driving the payback is probably even longer than figure you gave using the combined MPG figure.

Maybe this explains some of the left vs right argument on this topic. Lefties are more likely to be urban/suburban while conservatives more likely to be rural.
 

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