found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners

   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #21  
Thinking back to the woods I grew up in, we harvested firewood annually and our woods was open, accessible, and clear of undergrowth and much of the fallen debris that fuels wildfires and such in places like California. These forest fires are a kind of unregulated burning of wood that releases particulate matter into the air in tremendous volume. Perhaps I should petition my state to sue the EPA to regulate particulate matter being released through wild fires....... And while I'm thinking about it, sometimes when my grill needs cleaning it gets smoky too. Maybe we could sue to have better emission controls on our barbeques as well. Better yet maybe we could get them to ban all fires!:fiery:

Not a good idea to even joke about that..... :rolleyes: Rgds, D.

Hamburgers Pollute More Than Powerstrokes | Blue Springs Ford Parts Blog

Hamburgers Pollute More Than Powerstrokes
by Tim Esterdahl on October 30, 2012


Scientists have determined that cooking a charbroiled hamburger emits the same air pollution as driving a heavy-duty truck for 143 miles. Does this prove EPA regulations are too stringent or should we ban charbroiling hamburgers?

In a surprising scientific study, it was determined that charbroiled hamburgers pollute as much as driving a heavy-duty diesel truck.

The researchers at the University of California recently came to this conclusion according to a story in the NY Times. The schools principal investigator told the NY Times that while this may seem counterintuitive the "hamburger's role in air pollution stands out as other sources of particulate emissions, like cars and trucks, have undertaken heavy regulatory diets."

"As of today, we estimate that the hamburger's contribution of particulate matter to ambient atmosphere is twice that of all the on-road diesel vehicles, Mr. Welch said in a telephone interview with the NY Times. "It's really a testament to the advances in technology in diesel engines."

The University has produced a study that was apparently financed by two air-quality districts in California. The study took place in the South Coast Air Basin that includes parts of Orange County, portions of other surrounding counties that include cities like Los Angeles and Riverside. Mr. Welch found that charbroiled burgers emit 33 pounds of particulate matter per 1,000 pounds of meat cook. In real-world terms, a typical 1/3 pound patty emits five grams of particles. This compares to a diesel truck emitting 35 milligrams per mile for 143 miles to equal the same amount of soot (1,000 milligrams per 1 gram).

"Generally, clean diesels are matched up against natural gas, hybrids or electric vehicles," Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum, a nonprofit diesel-advocacy group, was quoted as saying in the NY Times article. "This is the first time we've gone head-to-head against fast food."

Apparently the big issue is at the grill whose open flame heats up to 800-900 degrees. These grills known as "open-underfired broilers" are the worst emitters of soot.

This isn't to say that your local McDonald's is a huge air polluter since they often use a griddle to fry burgers and cook them at a lower temperature which doesn't produce much particulate.

It took the researchers about 4,000 pounds of meat since May, 2012 to come to this conclusion. The majority of this food goes to college students and food kitchens.

What do you think? Does this illustrate the problems that critics have with the EPA or is this just an odd coincidence?
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #22  
It took the researchers about 4,000 pounds of meat since May, 2012 to come to this conclusion. The majority of this food goes to college students and food kitchens.

Free burgers for college students and it took two tons of beef to finish the "research." :laughing::laughing: Did the API furnished the condiments?

I wonder what type of charcoal they used. Some charcoal like Kingsford in the blue and white bags, is compressed coal dust and wood charcoal dust. How would that compare to real hardwood charcoal I wonder.
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #23  
Thinking back to the woods I grew up in, we harvested firewood annually and our woods was open, accessible, and clear of undergrowth and much of the fallen debris that fuels wildfires and such in places like California. These forest fires are a kind of unregulated burning of wood that releases particulate matter into the air in tremendous volume. Perhaps I should petition my state to sue the EPA to regulate particulate matter being released through wild fires....... And while I'm thinking about it, sometimes when my grill needs cleaning it gets smoky too. Maybe we could sue to have better emission controls on our barbeques as well. Better yet maybe we could get them to ban all fires!:fiery:
Remember when they stopped the controlled burn 'for the environment' only to learn later that they really needed to do the burns to control forest fires and 'protect the environment'? Kinda like using wind power to kill eagles..
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners
  • Thread Starter
#24  
Living just south of Cleveland I can tell you it was the Cuyahoga River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Cuyahoga river. Never fished that one but I can tell you a few miles west is Black River, spent years fishing that one and have ate a lot of fish out of it even in the 70's when pollution was really bad...
However most of that was up river near Lodi where Black River has it's headwaters. Cuyahoga river runs thru the industrial part of old Cleveland, lots of run off oil, paints wood and trash being wasted into the river. That was why the EPA was created and we NEEDED IT back then, now however I don't think MOST people or corporations are as bad as what things were back then. Everyone are talking longer term views of our globe HERE where as China is just beginning to realize they have to do the same.

I see the wood burner issue as something that is probably NOT something the EPA should be getting into, while some people will toss Styrofoam into a fire, doing so with a $10K dollar outdoor wood burner would be idiotic. The problem is with older OWB people toss in a pile of green wood and let the fire smolder which would cause smoke. There are better units that are gassifire units (heats the wood turning it into smoke then puts smoke thru fire block that super heats and burns the wood gas/smoke) what comes out of the combustion chamber is very clean then.

The only real problem is these stoves are MUCH more expensive than a regular stove. Lots of people can't afford them so if the EPA mandates their use (like Healthcare) it should be subsidized for the more poor. I have much of the needed materials installed but have not bought a OWB yet been watching the different versions. there are several issues around the NEW gassification units so don't think I'll go that way, maybe make my own ??? :)

Mark
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #25  
Living just south of Cleveland I can tell you it was the Cuyahoga River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Cuyahoga river. Never fished that one but I can tell you a few miles west is Black River, spent years fishing that one and have ate a lot of fish out of it even in the 70's when pollution was really bad...
However most of that was up river near Lodi where Black River has it's headwaters. Cuyahoga river runs thru the industrial part of old Cleveland, lots of run off oil, paints wood and trash being wasted into the river. That was why the EPA was created and we NEEDED IT back then, now however I don't think MOST people or corporations are as bad as what things were back then. Everyone are talking longer term views of our globe HERE where as China is just beginning to realize they have to do the same.

I see the wood burner issue as something that is probably NOT something the EPA should be getting into, while some people will toss Styrofoam into a fire, doing so with a $10K dollar outdoor wood burner would be idiotic. The problem is with older OWB people toss in a pile of green wood and let the fire smolder which would cause smoke. There are better units that are gassifire units (heats the wood turning it into smoke then puts smoke thru fire block that super heats and burns the wood gas/smoke) what comes out of the combustion chamber is very clean then.

The only real problem is these stoves are MUCH more expensive than a regular stove. Lots of people can't afford them so if the EPA mandates their use (like Healthcare) it should be subsidized for the more poor. I have much of the needed materials installed but have not bought a OWB yet been watching the different versions. there are several issues around the NEW gassification units so don't think I'll go that way, maybe make my own ??? :)

Mark

Normally EPA will not mandate that existing units be replaced UNLESS they are completely rebuilt; in that case they must perform as new. The NSPS (New Source Performance Standards) will only apply to the newer units being built.
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Normally EPA will not mandate that existing units be replaced UNLESS they are completely rebuilt; in that case they must perform as new. The NSPS (New Source Performance Standards) will only apply to the newer units being built.

An that would mean any self constructed units too, means can't build your own as they would require lots of testing which would force most small manufactures go out of business but then that is what they are best at forcing the small manufactures out of competition with big government and big business...
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #27  
An that would mean any self constructed units too, means can't build your own as they would require lots of testing which would force most small manufactures go out of business but then that is what they are best at forcing the small manufactures out of competition with big government and big business...

That's pretty much the way it works; there is usually a minimum before the standards apply, i.e., 50% of the cost of a new unit. Where it really gets into the big bucks, is situations where they rebuild something like an old coal fired electric generating unit which might cost several hundred million dollars. Lots of law suits are over whether or not a unit has been rebuilt.
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #28  
Sorry about confusing your rivers there Ohio fellows, truth is I got a bad taste in my mouth for that whole State cause it's contaminated by them State Police of yours. I'd drive 500 extra miles to not drive in Ohio.
You got a long stretch of I90 there goes across water between Akron and Erie Pa. Had paperwork said I had to cross it with a police escort, fine, waited 15 hours, then I make 1 simple request, put a police car behind my trailer couple hundred feet, and keep other vehicles off the span I'm on and span behind me, I'll handle the span in front of my truck. NOPE, fools can't do it the way the man driving the truck with 20 axles on the road knows will work, they gotta put little 4 wheel cars going past me on a dang bridge. Well I go swimming that's my problem, but I sure don't want no dang car swimming with me. I finally get across that dang swamp and the fools insist on weighing my truck. OK, go for it. Wound up they busted their scale and wanted my company to pay for the scale.

Ran another transformer up there to a tire factory, overwidth & overload permits all in the book. Smokey Bear insists on diverting me off the route on the permit to go around some dang construction site says he. OK, it happens. Permit was cut sometimes 3 weeks before and the guy cutting it might not know about some problem. I get a mile off the route and that rottin creature tickets me for being off approved route. Right hand to God, Ohio has the absolute worst State Police in the country.

Far as this EPA bunch goes, sure does seem to be something a little off about them boys & girls. I been reading where they want to put rules on cow farts now. Just how many tax dollars they going to spend having some fool in a lab coat following a cow around with a sensor?

Then they goto howling about wood smoke. I gotta use a dang California Compliant gas can that's so good I gotta unscrew the spout to get gas out & a funnelto get the gas where I want it. REAL SMART!

California got a whole mountain of rules about polution and some more about open fires, and how you gotta have a catalytic converter on a wood stove because it can't smoke. Fine, how about next time they have one of them gigantic fires cause they won't manage woodlots proper they comply with that No Smoke law of theirs? Maybe one of the States East of California getting all that smoke ought to sue California.

I just can't help wondering when the idiots took this country over.
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners #29  
Small lumber mills were getting shut-down in the Ottawa Valley. Their infraction ? They had piles of sawdust sitting in the bush "in concentrations that wouldn't occur in Nature".

Where I have a problem with "environmental" regulations is when they mainly exist to serve a corporate agenda. Major wood companies love to see these little guys disappear.... funny, there seems to be a lot of retired politicians on their Board of Directors.... ;)

I like clean air and water, and am old enough to appreciate how far we've come.

Undue corporate influence in govt is another matter, though obviously not restricted to just environmental issues.

Rgds, D.

Totally agree with the last statement - and If the multinationals get the TPP fast tracked and pushed thru
It ain't gonna be pretty, for any small companies , individuals or even countries... JMO
 
   / found this at FF EPA law suit against wood burners
  • Thread Starter
#30  
(removed):

Yep Ohio has an abundance of DUNCES err Cops. 3rd in the good ole US of A for # of piglets vs population and miles driven, behind CA and NY. but we have the more GUNG HO cops, lat year 19 cops fires 150+ rounds into a car killing two clevelanders who's car backfired there were no guns in the car but the tried to claim so but almost 40 cops there & not enough would go along I guess. some of them should be doing time so far only paid time off... :/ Personally been targeted by greedy BS trumped up charges and the lot, had to call FBI to eventually get charges dropped. these cops said I HAD TO PROVE MY INNOCENCE and cost me over $6500 in legal fees cause worthless cops... Have 0 use for pretty much all of them I can carry and protect myself just fine.

M
 

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