Freezing pipes

[Bird]

heehaw, I wouldn't want to be contentious, but I do believe wingnut missed that one, and you have the right idea. The expansion that is generated when water freezes is what breaks the pipe, but of course, it doesn't start leaking until it thaws. However, if you have a faucet (and pipe) frozen enough to stop the water flow, but that has not yet burst the pipe and you try to thaw it with a torch, you may thaw, then boil, the water in one spot before you thaw the obstruction farther down the pipe and the steam may burst the pipe. In other words, you don't want to overdo it with too much heat in one small spot.

Now at least that's always been my understanding of the situation./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

HeeHaw,

Just a thought.

<font color=blue>Freezing doesn't burst a pipe, but the pressure created by thawing ice (water) with no place to go bursts the pipe.</font color=blue>

Ice takes up more room than water, otherwise ice cubes would be on the bottom of your glass. The pipe ruptures when the water freezes. It leaks when the ice thaws.

 

[RobertN]

This may or may not be true for your small faucets, but what the heck. What you are describing is a miniature dry barrel fire hydrant.

The cardinal rule when we hook an engine to a hydrant, or use it for any other purpose, is to open them ALL the way, and close them ALL the way. If you do not, it does not properly open and close the drain on the barrel. Presto, the barrel doesn't drain properly.

When the barrel drain does not open/close properly, it leaves water in the barrel to freeze. It also tends to allow sediment buildup, which aggravates the whole situation.

This might be worth checking in the valve documentation.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[heehaw]

yeah, thats how i thought they worked, but thats a lot better explanation and a more descriptive name than "freeze proof" faucet.
thanks
heehaw

 

[Wingnut]

Guess it's time to fire up Dogpile and seearch the internet for a definitive answer to this one. I had always thought as Bird did and believed that it was the expansion of ice as it froze that burst pipes, but was "re-educated" by an engineer and documentation on my (previous) hot water heating system ... both of whom (which) stated it was the expansion when it melted that caused the pressure. I'll fire up the search engines after I finish replacing the bathroom fan ...
Heehaw ... the wall-type freeze-proof valves that I've seen did not have drains on them ... they just had a long enough pipe and stem to keep the valve part inside the heated house ... a drain would certainly have solved the problem ... which I why I changed my plumbing to add a valve and drain inside.

too bad that common sense ain't

 

[Wingnut]

Bird ... nothing is better than being righyt ... except admitting that you were wrong. I was wrong and will now have to retire to the back room and keep my mouth shut for awhile. Gee I hate that!
Anyway ... I did some very quick research and found lots of good articles from educators on the molecular alignment of hydrogen atoms as water freezes ... (http://edie.cprost.sfu.ca/~rhlogan/water_ex.html)...
See, you weren't contentious ... just correct.


too bad that common sense ain't

 

[Bird]

Wingnut, glad to know I'm right sometimes. Heck, even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif You made me wonder whether I was going to have to re-think what I'd been taught about frozen pipes.

Bird

 

[RobertN]

Here is a fair diagram of a in-ground valve.
For more desriptions, see:
http://www.firehydrant.org/info/drybarreltypes.html

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Wingnut,

Maybe this isn't as one way as it seems "pipes break when the water freezes". Envision a length of pipe which is solidly frozen and has not ruptured. Thaw that pipe in the middle such that both ends remain solidly frozen. The thawed section now contains a vacuum which is stressing the pipe inwardly. Maybe the action to expand the pipe on freezing followed by the action to contract it upon thawing is sufficient to rupture the pipe. I don't think this idea works for round pipes but may happen in square pipes. I don't remember ever seeing a square pipe/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Happy Holidays to you and yours/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al

 

[heehaw]

the wall-type freeze proof faucets don't "have" a drain, thats why they have to be tilted to the outside, then when you shut them off, they automatically drain, unless there is a hose still attached. i have one that is tilted wrong, it freezes so i can't use it, but hasn't bursted, yet.
heehaw