Oil & Fuel Front axle/ 30 W oil ?

[Frankm]

in my book on my 204 Notrac it shows 30 W Motor Oil , What do you guys use , is it ok to use 30W oil in there , Thanks !PS Been Working the tractor here near Erie Pa , Way over 60 Inch a snow so far this year , tractor running Great , knock on wood.

 

[Diamondpilot]

30W is what they say because that is all that is available in most parts of the world. A better choice and what most of us use on this site is a 80W90 GL4 or GL5 gear oil.

There is a lot of talk about yellow metals and GL5 not being good for them. If you do your research most GL5 oils are now yellow metal safe. I would just get a good 80W90 in a 5 gallon pale. Get a pump to put it in with. I got one from Harbor Freight for $20 or so and goes right on top of the pale once the lid is removed.

I would use 80W90 in your front axle and tranny. Make sure you locate all the drain plugs. The front axle has 3 and the tranny has 4.

Chris.

 

[Reg]

in my book on my 204 Notrac it shows 30 W Motor Oil , What do you guys use , is it ok to use 30W oil in there , Thanks !PS Been Working the tractor here near Erie Pa , Way over 60 Inch a snow so far this year , tractor running Great , knock on wood.

If that is what the manufacturer recommends.... Well, does it need to be spelled out ?
Adequate lube is just that, additives and extended visc range do little/no good in a low speed oil bath application.
Don't confuse low viscosity numbers with low(er) film strength, they don't always correlate.

 

[Diamondpilot]

If you look on a oil chart a 30W motor oil and a 80W90 gear oil is about the same viscosity. The difference is in the additives. GO with the gear oil!!!

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/cat_header/890_3.pdf

Chris

 

[IH3444]

You definely need the extreme pressure additive which is in 90w gear oil. I personally would go one better and use a high quality 90w synthetic gear oil such as Amsoil 3000 series gear oil, Mobil 1 90w gear oil, etc. 3RRL did an extensive documentation of replacing the entire front axle beveled gears sets on both sides of his KAMA 55, at around 500 hours of use. Big job, but 3RRL is a big man, so no sweat for him. Just another thing to be done. I would want to protect the front sets of my gears as well as possible. I have Amsoil 3000 series 75-90w in mine. It's a NH TC48DA.

 

[greg_g]

I strongly advise against the use of synthetics and synthetic blends in Chinese tractors, for at least the first 300 hours anyway. This includes engine/gear boxes/hydraulics. These are 1950-1960 technology machines, not engineered with the most exacting of tolerances. To be as untechnical as possible, synthetics are actually too slippery. You'll never complete a proper break-in.

Northern basically just re-wrote the Chinese manuals into what they thought was a little more understandable English. Even at that, it still raises a lot of questions. The original Chinese manual by the way, actually specifies "30 weight diesel oil". That's cuz engine oil doesn't have the EP additives that have been reported as harmful to yellow metals. 80W90 gear oil has an average viscosity equivalency of 30W engine oil. As mentioned, many manufacturers are beginning to modify their GL3/4/5 oils to be MT1 compatible. Coastal is one, I just bought 10 gallons of their GL5/MT1.

That's my strongest recommendation; a proper gear oil that's includes an API rating of MT1 (or is clearly marked as "safe for yellow metals"). 80W90 is the most common weight, typical in cool to moderate climates. Folks in warm to hot climates often opt to move up to the thicker 85W140. I personally found 80W90 too thin for the heat of July and August in this part of Kentucky, so that 10 gallons I just bought was 85W140

//greg//

 

[IH3444]

Just don't wait until 500 hours.......I wouldn't be concerned with the "break in" of heavy meshing front axle gears. But you'll have to decide on that. Mybe 3RRL will chime in on the gear oil he was using before replacing the front gears, and bearing on his KAMA. Frankly I'm not worried at all about the front gears on my TC48DA. With today's modern machinig equipment, and techniques, the gears, cylinder bores, etc are machined near perfect, if not perfect. I have read that modern engine piston rings are seated now within the first 20 minutes of running. Of course the chinese tractors may have slightly different metal alloys, heat treatment, tolerances, quality inspections.....but I doubt it. I'm almost sure they are all about the same now.

 

[ray66v]

We just went through this on the MF forum.

Our manual says 30w hyd. oil. or 80w gear lube.

MF reps. confirmed it was ok to use the EP gear lube, this was also recommended by an engineer I know, who specializes in failure analysis.

 

[3RRL]

I'd recommend either 80w/90 or 85/140 gear oil, which is what I use in the front end.
Like IH3444 said, I've had my entire front end apart (shees 2 times now) because the first time a year ago I stripped the small bevel gears on both front drives and just the other day I broke a casting on the left front drive and had to take that one apart again to fix it. Anyway, I don't think synthetic gear oil would hurt a bit in there even right off the bat. My guess is it would be better that dino gear oil because of it's supposedly better lubing qualities. Only thing it's quite expensive so I got a pail of 85w/140 Sta Lube at Napa for that and the transmission. Since I've had the entire front drives apart, I can tell you there are no yellow metals in there at all ... at least on my Kama 554. When I had the transmission open and looked around in it, I couldn't find any yellow metals in it either. All the components on mine were steel bushings and ball bearings and needle bearings in the front end and trans. Maybe on your Nortrac there are yellow metals though? Anybody know for sure on your tractor or about the Nortrac? If so, please tell me what component is yellow metal in there.

 

[IH3444]

Modern CNC machines are machining parts repeatably within 0.0004" now. And these are the standard production machines. There are CNC machining centers which can now repeatably machine down to millionth of an inch. Just besure to use a 75-90w or 75/80-140w gear oil with the extreme pressure additive.

 

[greg_g]

My guess is it would be better that dino gear oil because of it's supposedly better lubing qualities.

In a fully submerged situation, your guess might have legs. But the tranny and both diffs have exposed components that depend upon the gear oil ability to climb. Mineral oil climbs, synthetic oil splashes.

Synthetics might be perfectly ok to break in a mainstream tractor machined to 21st century tolerances, I don't know. But it's simply too slippery to climb AND too slippery to competently break in most entry level Chinese tractors and implements. For that I still recommend at least 300 hours of mineral oil lubrication. After that, feel free to experiment with synthetics at your own risk.

//greg//

 

[Soundguy]

I'd use utf or gear oil vs 30w engine oil in that application for sure..

soundguy

 

[RickB]

I would use 80W90 in your front axle and tranny. Make sure you locate all the drain plugs. The front axle has 3 and the tranny has 4.

Chris.

80W-90 is a poor choice for the transmission IF the trans housing is part of the hydraulic reservoir.

 

[greg_g]

... IF the trans housing is part of the hydraulic reservoir.

It is not. There are a few Chinese exceptions, but Jinma is not one of them (NorTracs are rebadged Jinmas). On Jinmas, tranny and rear diff housings share a sump that is completely independent of the hydraulic system. We repeatedly advise against the use of universal type fluid in separate sump designs of Chinese origin; UTF is often too thin for the gears, usually too thick for the hydraulics.

//greg//

 

[IH3444]

The retired military helocopter pilot whom began the Amsoil company, did so on his experience while flying combat missions in Vietnam. He noticed that when he returned from a mission that the rotor gear box had been hit, a hole was in it, and all the gear lube has drained out. He questioned the aviation technicians about it and was told that the helo rotor gear boxes were filled with synthetic gear lube, and that it has the ability to cling to metal parts, and still keep operating at elevated tempertures. He attributed the high quality of the synthetic gear to saving his life, and the others that he had brought back. After his service to America, he founded the company, Amsoil.

I also have had my volkswagen Jetta serviced, and was allowed to speak with the technician whom was checking the valve clearance on my diesel engine. After pulling the valve cover off a summer time hot engine, he asked what kind of oil was I using. A quite unexpected question, of which I had the answer. Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. He exclaimed that he had never seen a hot engine that the oil hadn't run off the camshaft when hot, and was wondering what oil it was. He also stated that it was tough to wipe it off the camshaft lobes.

I'm not a trained tribologist, just relaying a few stories......

 

[bluechip]

Just a couple quick comments. Having been to the shandong factory that builds the KAMA branded tractors and toured their mahcine shops I can tell you that I saw NO equipment capable of holding "tenths" (ten thoustands or .0001") In fact, I saw mostly older manual machines, a bank of NC (NOT CNC) milling machines, that I could not idenify, but appeared to be out of the late 60s (6 or 8, maybe one still ran). They have their own foundry that appeared as if it was out of the 1930s. They did have test fixtures to "run in" assembled transmissions. The DF factory was different with late model, mostley Japanesese (and surprisingly a couple of US made HAAS machines) pallet chaninging HMCs etc. This was a big factor in my decision to go with DFAM for our AgTrac tractors. I had made my living as a CNC service tech and later as a sales engineer so the machine shop was a priority for me.

I didn't go to the Jinma factory and the Foton factory had no in-house machining.

The only yellow metals I have seen in the front end are in the differential assembly. there are brass thrust washers under the 4 smaller gears (spider gears) in the differential. While I have not seen these fail on a KAMA, I have reuibilt a few front differentials on Jinma 200 series tracors and in every case these brass washers had extruded out from behind the gears, this increases the clearence on the gear mesh and makes them prone to damage. I guess this is more from the increased pressure of loader work than a partiluclar lubricant, but if the sulfer in EP type oils does more than stain the brass, if it softens it or is abrasive to it, I would avoid using it. I have not had one apart, but suspect there are also brass washers used in the rear differential. I don't recall seeing any other bushings or parts made of brass. Our Agtrac 3024 had a full synchro transmission and the synchro rings are a brass alloy. I suspect "MT-1" may indicate manual transmission which are mostly synchronized these days. At least I use that to remember the spec when I order gear oil...

 

[Soundguy]

Plenty of 80w90 out tht is yellow metal safe.. penzoil and castroil have one, and in mny places the walmart supertech gear oil also lists that it is yellow metal safe.

soundguy

 

[greg_g]

the helo rotor gear boxes were filled with synthetic gear lube, and that it has the ability to cling to metal parts...

Cling and climb are different properties. Climb is the ability of an oil to use centrifugal force to walk up the gear faces ABOVE the dipstick level. Cling just refers to how long it takes centrifugal force to spin dry an inadvertently exposed bearing or gear. Chinese tractor differentials and transmissions have exposed parts ABOVE the dipstick level. So it's important that the lubricant selected - can CLIMB.

And if I'm not mistaken - everything is submerged in most VN-era helo transmissions. Besides, Al Amatuzio flew a fighter jet. Are you seriously comparing a Chinese tractor to a high performance jet aircraft? Or bettery yet - remind me where the front differential is on either a Huey or a Thud.......

//greg//

 

[greg_g]

Plenty of 80w90 out tht is yellow metal safe.. penzoil and castroil have one, and in mny places the walmart supertech gear oil also lists that it is yellow metal safe.

soundguy

My point exactly. There's no reason to use anything other than gear oil in (most) Chinese gearboxes and differentials. I'm not sure of the exact reason, but for a while there really was a reason for concern. Gear oils marked GL4 and GL5 appeared not suitable for yellow metals. That just left GL1 (hard to find at all anymore) and MT1 (hard to find in multi-viscosity). The reason stated was as Chip just mentioned, EP additives in GL4/GL5 attacked copper/brass/bronze. Either the original labeling was incorrect, the original concerns were unfounded, or - more likely - the manufacturers are starting to reformulate the EP additives. I say this because of the recent increase in the number of GL4 and GL5 gear oils that are now marked to include the API rating of MT1

//greg//

 

[IH3444]

Yes Greg, I'm familiar with the term climb, others refer to this as a wicking effect. I'm sure that both regular oil, and synthetics have this same atribute. I'm surprised that one would be better in this than the other. They both are oils, and synthetics are just a better engineered regular oil. I don't think that this desirable quality of wicking, or climbing would be engineered out. With all the differences that have been pointed out about chinese tractors, with the need for climbing oils, and yellow metal being an issue, seems that a market exists for a speciality formulated gear oil for chinese tractors. To help them properly break in from being machined, to being protected due to the brass thrust washers. Seems that brass being used as a thrust washer would have give anyway over time no matter what lubercant was being used. Rob pointed out there was no brass metal in has beveled gear areas.

Sorry if I related the military gear box to the gear box in the chinese tractors......that is a great mistake of mine. Nothing could be futher from the truth.