Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal?

   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #21  
go here - About.com: http://www.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive.htm and click play on the 4 wheel drive demo. I saw this article a few years ago and it really opened my eyes how 4 wheel drive really works and explains why 4 wheel drive really gets stuck unless it has a locking diff.
I've read the article but I don't understand why it says 4WD won't help you to stop on a slippery surface. IMO when I slow the engine, all 4 wheels will try to reduce the tractor's speed, which should be more efficient than when only 2 are trying to slow down (more tire surface on the ground). I may have missed something.:confused:
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #22  
Hello, I have a L3830. Today, going uphill in mushy snow in 4 WD (no tire chains yet!) one front wheel started to spin while the other was still. I thought that the front wheel in 4 WD where linked together. Is the spinning in the front wheel normal? Thanks.


y e s
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #23  
I've read the article but I don't understand why it says 4WD won't help you to stop on a slippery surface. IMO when I slow the engine, all 4 wheels will try to reduce the tractor's speed, which should be more efficient than when only 2 are trying to slow down (more tire surface on the ground). I may have missed something.:confused:

I thin that they are referring to a car/truck 4WD system in which you have 4 wheel brakes and in that case 4WD will not help braking and can in fact make ABS not work as well.

Aaron Z
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #24  
Link to Wikipedia didn't work. This link above was informative but confirmed what I understand about 4WD. It doesn't clarify the post by Spyderlk.

To ovrszd: In the usual circumstance the second front tire won't spin (or have traction, or have torque applied, or whatever) unless a locking differential in front is part of the system. I agree, most 4WD systems engage three wheels at best. The front tire with the least traction spins. If it happens to grab then the other tire could lose traction and be the one to spin. In a convoluted way, all four tires could at some time or another be driven - thus 4WD.
SPYDERLK said:
Post12)Not really. Like you say the wheel with the least traction will spin, however the non spinning wheel is providing about equal thrust as the spinning wheel. Both wheels are driving, but youre only getting 2x the thrust of the one with least traction. Not 1 [or 3] wd. -- .....Post15)because twice the thrust of the spinning wheel is not as much as the thrust of the spinning wheel added to what you can get from the wheel with good traction if you force it to turn too using the d/l.
No, what I said was a 2 line encapsulation of the effect described in wiki below:
wikipedia said:
One undesirable side effect of a conventional differential is that it can reduce overall torque - the rotational force which propels the vehicle. The amount of torque required to propel the vehicle at any given moment depends on the load at that instant - how heavy the vehicle is, how much drag and friction there is, the gradient of the road, the vehicle's momentum, and so on. For the purpose of this article, we will refer to this amount of torque as the "threshold torque".

The torque applied to each driving roadwheel is a result of the engine and transmission applying a twisting force against the resistance of the traction at that roadwheel. Unless the load is exceptionally high, the engine and transmission can usually supply as much torque as necessary, so the limiting factor is usually the traction under each wheel. It is therefore convenient to define traction as the amount of torque that can be generated between the tire and the road surface, before the wheel starts to slip. If the total traction under all the driven wheels exceeds the threshold torque, the vehicle will be driven forward; if not, then one or more wheels will simply spin.

To illustrate how a differential can limit overall torque, imagine a simple rear-wheel drive vehicle, with one rear roadwheel on asphalt with good grip, and the other on a patch of slippery ice. With the load, gradient, etc., the vehicle requires, say, 2,000 newton metres (1,480 ftキlbf) of torque to move forward (i.e. the threshold torque). Let us further assume that the non-spinning traction on the ice equates to 400 Nキm (300 ftキlbf), and the asphalt to 3,000 Nキm (2,210 ftキlbf).

If the two roadwheels were driven without a differential, each roadwheel would be supplied with an equal amount of torque, and would push against the road surface as hard as possible. The roadwheel on ice would quickly reach the limit of traction (400 Nm), but would be unable to spin because the other roadwheel has good traction. The traction of the asphalt plus the small extra traction from the ice exceeds the threshold requirement, so the vehicle will be propelled forward.

With a differential, however, as soon as the "ice wheel" reaches 400 Nm, it will start to spin, and then develop less traction ~300 Nm. The planetary gears inside the differential carrier will start to rotate because the "asphalt wheel" encounters greater resistance. Instead of driving the asphalt wheel with more force, the differential will still symmetrically split the total amount of available torque equally. ~300 Nm is sufficient to make the ice wheel to spin, but the equal amount of ~300 Nm is not enough to turn the asphalt wheel. Since the asphalt wheel remains stationary, the spinning ice wheel will rotate twice as fast as before. As the actual torque on both roadwheels is the same - the amount is determined by the lesser traction of the ice wheel. So both wheels will get 300 Nm each. Since 600 Nm is less than the required threshold torque of 2000 Nm, the vehicle will not be able to utilise the output from the engine, and will not move.

An observer will simply see one stationary roadwheel on one side of the vehicle, and one spinning roadwheel on the opposite side. It will not be obvious that both wheels are generating the same torque (i.e. both wheels are in fact pushing equally, despite the difference in rotational speed). This has led to a widely held misconception that a vehicle with a differential is really only "one-wheel-drive". In fact, a normal differential always allows the transmission of equal torque to both driven roadwheels; unless it is a specific type of differential, such as locking, torque-biasing, or limited slip type.

A proposed way to distribute the power to the wheels, is to use the concept of gearless differential, of which a review has been reported by Provatidis [2], but the various configurations seem to correspond either to the "sliding pins and cams" type, such as the ZF B-70 available for early VWs, or are a variation of the ball differential.
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #25  
I thin that they are referring to a car/truck 4WD system in which you have 4 wheel brakes and in that case 4WD will not help braking and can in fact make ABS not work as well.

Aaron Z

Thanks. Of course, I should have thought of cars !
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #26  
Thanks. Of course, I should have thought of cars !
Cars, yes. If your coming down a steep hill on a tractor that has 4wd you need to keep it in 4wd for the engine to assist as well as the wheels to slow you down. With HST the power pedal will usually do it all. Now the physics of it I can explain by telling you to go try it both ways (make sure you have insurance and clean shorts on when you do the 2wd) then you will understand the physics of it or decide you don't care why it does it but you will always do it in 4wd the next time.:) Also try it on wet grass and you'll see, if the hill is steep enough, that 2wd or 4wd doesn't matter.
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #27  
No, what I said was a 2 line encapsulation of the effect described in wiki below:

Perhaps this explanation can be applied to the apparent acceleration through a turn when one wheel brake is applied to assist in the turn.
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #28  
Perhaps this explanation can be applied to the apparent acceleration through a turn when one wheel brake is applied to assist in the turn.
Yes. Traction control, turning assistance, split brakes, etc. Whether turning or going straight selective braking thru a differential can increase power to the ground by shifting it to the place where it will do most good. Its brakes tho, so it wastes some power for the net gain. Thats the breaks:D. Going straight, or even a gradual turn, a diff lock would win out.
larry
 
   / Front wheels spinning in 4WD. Normal? #29  
All I know is that 4 wheel drive works good whether it's actually two or three wheel drive. After reading this thread decided to test the 4 wheel drive today. I was coming up a steep hill in the woods in about 6 inches of snow. The lever was in rear wheel drive, I have rear chains, loaded tires and weight on the back. I started to slip, stepped on the dff lock, a little better but just chewing from side to side not going forward to well. Stopped, shifted into 4wd drive and the thing went right up the hill through the snow with no rear diff lock engaged. No exaggeration. So don't let anybody tell you, 4wd drive without a front diff lock or whatever isn't much good. Those are guys that bought two wheel drive tractors that live in Southern California.;)
 

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