Fuel Boycott on the 19th !!

Junkman · May 18, 2004

Andy..... I don't believe that you "need" 3 tractors and that you shouldn't have 3 tractors at all. It is people like you that are denying the people that can't afford a new tractor from getting one because you are "hording" all the older Ford tractors. Please post when you divest yourself of at least 2 of the 3 tractors. After all, you don't need 3 tractors except to impress other people when they see them. It is your greed that is getting in the way of others having what they want. Please don't argue with me on this, because I know what is best for you, just like you know what is best for all the other Americans that drive SUV's that in your opinion they just don't need. After all, isn't' this the American way... one person telling the rest of the people exactly what they need! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Skurka · May 18, 2004

AndyM . . . you and I tend to agree more often than not, but I would have to take some serious exception to what you wrote about NEED.

What type of car do I need? And who will decide it?

Is is fair to say that I am a business executive of a $100+ million company so therefore I need a Mercedes or a Rolls? Well I drive a Volvo convertible, that is not fair to me because I could obviously get a fancier car. But I like my Volvo. And it get pretty darn good gas milage for a car that is reasonably expensive (about $50k).

Or what about my Volvo XC90? Again, pretty good mileage with that puppy, and while it was not $70k, it was about $45k when I got it 2 months ago. And Sunday I drove it home from the museums in Chicago with 5 people in it and we got 20mpg according to the trip computer. But I suppose it would be more "fair" for me to trade it up for the $70,000 Land Rover because of my "status" as a company CEO?

Or what about the lady who hands our A/R processing? How is it FAIR to her that she drives a 4 year old Jeep Grand Cherokee that she can't afford? Well let me tell you how it is fair. Her mini-van broke down so I gave her one of my old cars. Actually I told her she had to buy me lunch someday. But she got the car for free. Well maybe not for free, she's been working at this company for almost as long as I've been here, and I got here 19+ years ago. But I suppose that she doesn't deserve such a fine vehicle becuase she is a low wage single mom who lives in a trailer???

Who is to determine NEED? And who is to determine WHAT IS FAIR? And why do you have so many tractors when you only have one rear end to plop in the seat (not that I have any room to talk there!)???

What you wrote about GREED is probably true, we do have a greed for oil. But I think that it is reasonable to say that we are dependent upon oil, not because of greed, but because of our entire society and how we as a nation have developed. It is not unreasonable to say that we should conserve. I totally agree with that, in fact I switched nearly all of my lights to compact flourescents in my home, my house is well insulated, but it is certainly a much much larger house than I NEED, and that is not related in any way to GREED because I have a mortgage payment that is under $300 per month and I can easily pay off the balance without it impacting my lifestyle (but it is the only deduction I have left and my accountant recommends I do not pay it off).

GREED does not equal WANT which also does not equal NEED. I am not greedy because I have a bunch of tractors. I want them. I do not need them. The lady who runs our A/R at work NEEDED a car, she did not necessarily WANT a SUV, but she has one and now she can get to work which is something she NEEDs to do to pay her own bills and I don't think she has any GREED for gas because she drives a less fuel efficient car than I do.

MikePA · May 18, 2004

I think you believe it is purely conspiracy based. 
People who believe in conspiracies as the cause for higher oil prices seldom let facts get in the way. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Global demand goes up, US environmental laws now require refineries to retool so they can remove almost all sulpher from fuel, are meaningless when the black helicopters start flying. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

YanmarFever · May 18, 2004

Easy on the black choppers /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ive been for a ride a few times.
Ernie

MikePA · May 18, 2004

Ive been for a ride a few times. 
Me too. However, I usually can't remember anything afterwards, but my wife can tell cuz I start sculpting my mashed potatoes into the shape of a mountain. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bob_Skurka · May 18, 2004

Mike & Ernie . . . and what about the CROP CIRCLES that are in the back yard after those wild rides??? Are you guys leaving those for me to find?

MikePA · May 18, 2004

and what about the CROP CIRCLES that are in the back yard after those wild rides??? 
Crop circles, what crop circles? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Libertine · May 18, 2004

slowrev:

The way I see it if we all lived within our means the US economy would collapse. 

Amen. You may not realize how correct you are. The problem is the nature of the monetary system. It is based on monetizing the debt, meaning, every dollar you and I work for came into being because someone borrowed it from the bank. You, or, I, may repay our debt but the total debt MUST, MUST keep going up year by year at least enough to cover the interest burden.

If enough people cannot be induced to borrow and spend, the money supply (i.e. the total debt) will decrease. The second issue has to do with velocity (i.e. how fast each debt dollar changes hands in the course of a year). In other words, a given number of dollars will support a given level of trade at a given velocity. It is a tightrope (or ledge) getting narrower and narrower every year. You can thank Greenspan the economy hasn't gone over the edge long ago.

Two statistics that ought to scare anyone far more than the "price" of gas which, in REAL money (gold coin) is NO HIGHER THAN IT WAS 50 YEARS AGO!!! One, the velocity rate has been declining since the mid 90s. This means it takes MORE debt (i.e a greater debt money supply) to carry the same volume of buying/selling (trade). Secondly, last year the FED statistics showed an actual DECLINE in some measures of money supply 3 months of the year (not much, but remember, the supply HAS to keep going up). Clinton's "surplus" was sucking debt out of the economy. Not a good idea. The current "deficits" are pumping debt money back into the economy.

If I were a conspiracy buff (I am not) I would wonder if the current race to force a cashless system and the "anti terrorist" laws aren't perhaps designed to be directed against the American people when this thing finally collapses in order to maintain control. But I am not a conspiracy buff-I am a determinist (philosophically). It's coming. There's nothing we can do about it except try to stay out of the way.

JEH

PS this has been an interesting thread-I have seen a few really perceptive posts.

_RaT_ · May 18, 2004

Oh man Mike, funny you mention the black helicopters thing. We had a big ol black government helicopter flying around here the other day. It was big, had a tail rotor, main rotor and was bright white. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TresCrows · May 19, 2004

( Can anyone name a instance when the U.S. economy was in the dumper and we were NOT in or on the verge of a robust military excursion? 
How about the Great Depression of 1929? WWI had been over for about a decade and WWII wouldn't start for about another decade. )

Not true in the opinion of many. The near global depression fueled the circumstances that led to the Natzi rise to power and ultimately to our entrance into the conflict. I do not believe we were tricked into the war but certainly there were many including FDR who wanted us in it. Again, many also believe that it was WWII that finally ended the Depression though it is obvious we were on a recovery. It is often amusing to wonder what the world would have been like if there had been no WWII, FDR had ruled America and brought us out of the Depression--what would we be like. What would we be like if there had been no Vietnam? I hope I am not wondering the same 20 years from now--What would the world and the USA be like if the Terror Natzis had not attacked us on 9/11? I think if we can keep gas below 3 bucks a galllon then it is a minor thing in the big picture. J