Fuel efficient vehicles that are reasonably safe?

rozett · Mar 9, 2005

( It's unfortunate. However, so long as the vast unwashed masses keep buying the 12 mpg SUVs, we will never use our technology to improve fuel mileage. This is even more unfortunate. )

As the owner of one of those 12 mpg SUVs.......

I will be happy to trade my Ford Excursion for a 30 mpg vehicle as soon as someone makes one that will pull my 12k lb. trailer. Since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, I expect to continue to get 12 mpg (14 highway). /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

California · Mar 9, 2005

Rat,

Give us a clue what type of vehicle you are looking for.

Do you commute alone, tow, take kids on multi-day road trips, or just run to the corner grocery once a week. Do you need to impress the neighbors? Will this be the primary or only car? How many miles per year?

Any strong preference for or against European, Japanese, American, Korean, or an 'American' Ford actually built in Mexico or Canada? Need 4 wheel drive?

Would you go out of state to buy a diesel? (None are sold in California). Do you agree with the view that your safety is proportional to weight? Believe what you read in Consumer Reports? (Their annual auto issue just arrived, by the way.)

Everyone is suggesting what we like best - I hope some of these suggestions are on target for you!

AndyM · Mar 9, 2005

I was looking at gas vs. diesel vs. hybrid last summer and put a spreadsheet together of all of my potential candidates.

I put in the fuel mileage of each vehicle, the cost of each vehicle and monthly payment, and the number of miles I drive per year. In the end, I got to see what the total cost of my payments and fuel costs would be each year for each vehicle.

Even though the hybrids used much less fuel, the cost of the car was much more. In the end, I bought the Cavalier and decided to put the $10,000 I saved on my purchase price towards any extra fuel costs I might incur from not buying the Civic hybrid.

aardvark · Mar 9, 2005

If you read my very first post I said a work truck is different. However, the people living in apartments and condos driving around in huge SUVs really don't need an SUV. They just want one for the status.

OkeeDon · Mar 10, 2005

What problem did he describe?

Vehicles today get as good of mileage as the older vehicles but put out more power and performance... 

How much more mileage and how much less pollution would there be with all the improvements if the performance was the same as in the past? Sure, there are exceptions for pulling a heavy load. I'm looking to get an F350 myself. But, with the cost of operation going up so much, it will actually pay me to get another vehicle for myself when I don't need to pull a heavy trailer, and save a bunch of resources, as well.

The problem is, I can't get a car with good mileage for a reasonable price like I used to. I've had small, fuel efficient cars since 1981, averaging 35 to 45 mpg, and all cost less than $6,000 new. Allowing for inflation, I should be able to get a small, fuel efficent car today for about $9,000, but there are NONE that get the mileage I used to get, except for ridiculously expensive hybrids.

Performance? My son won an autocross championship with a 1300cc Toyota Starlet that got 39 mpg, but was also a pocket rocket. Our Suzuki Swift GT had 100 hp in a 1700# car, and would blow away many of today's performance cars, but still got 40 mpg hwy. They're being successully raced in SCCA road races.

_RaT_ · Mar 10, 2005

I am in the market for a car like the Subaru Outback. Basically replacing a Ford Windstar with something semi similar in that I could put our kid in it, our two dogs, my wife and I and the biggest change is AWD or 4WD so we don't need to chain up going to our cabin. I checked into the Subaru website on the Outback. They offer a non turbo 4 cylinder with OK mpg but the power I would question. It might be fine, I don't need a bunch of power, I just would like to be able to pass the trucks pulling the Donner Summit grade in a reasonable amount of time. I am not partial to any brand, make or country of origin. I would say that if it comes down to two similar products and one is made in the US and the other elsewhere, then it would be the US brand. I have had a used 1986 Subaru in the past. It was great but no power up the hill. I will buy used and have yet to ever buy a car new. Our Windstar is showing issues and I would like to get rid of it before we are nickel and dime'd.

Boondox · Mar 10, 2005

( I am in the market for a car like the Subaru Outback. Basically replacing a Ford Windstar with something semi similar in that I could put our kid in it, our two dogs, my wife and I and the biggest change is AWD or 4WD so we don't need to chain up going to our cabin. I checked into the Subaru website on the Outback. They offer a non turbo 4 cylinder with OK mpg but the power I would question. It might be fine, I don't need a bunch of power, I just would like to be able to pass the trucks pulling the Donner Summit grade in a reasonable amount of time. I am not partial to any brand, make or country of origin. I would say that if it comes down to two similar products and one is made in the US and the other elsewhere, then it would be the US brand. I have had a used 1986 Subaru in the past. It was great but no power up the hill. I will buy used and have yet to ever buy a car new. Our Windstar is showing issues and I would like to get rid of it before we are nickel and dime'd. )

Rat -- We have an Outback and absolutely love it, but you're never going to be getting 30mpg with it. 24 in mixed mostly rural driving is more like it. That said, the car is amazing! In fair weather it handles twisty back roads like a champion. In foul weather, well, let's just say there were times when the conditions were so bad other cars were sliding off the road all around me, and the Subaru got me home with not even a hint of slippage. Every time we think about trading it for a Honda Civic that gets 38mpg another ice storm comes along and convinces us that -- where we live -- we need at least one AWD vehicle in our family.

Power? Heck, it's a station wagon! But we've never had trouble passing rubbernecking tourists or the occasional log truck on a long uphill. Performance in mud has been dependable. We've never been stuck in mud season but with no low range you have to pay attention to the power band lest the vehicle lug down. The nose sticks out too far for off roading, contrary to some of their earlier commercials. Reliability has been rock solid until recently. We lost a fog light to a rock, and the front end seems prone to chip damage from flying pebbles. When we turned 90k miles the check engine light came on; we overrode the code for a bad catalyst and are waiting to see if it comes back on. That would be $750 for a replacement. Also the center differential is showing signs of failing, which would be another $800. Our mechanic says the rest of the vehicle should last another 100k easily.

Plenty of room inside for the wife and I, and our six golden retrievers...or two goldens and a load of groceries, a couple bales of straw, or what have you.

I have a single complaint about the design of the car, and I've noticed the 2005s have the same issue. There is not much clearance between the tires and the wheel wells, so ice or mud collects there in cold weather and the tires scrape the ice in turns or over bumps. When that happens it sounds like I'm driving a belt sander!

Hope this helps. Pete

Robert_in_NY · Mar 10, 2005

There is more to performance then speed. When I talk about performance I am talking about speed and hauling power. You can take a lawnmower engine and rig it up to run a car but you are not going to pull anything with it or haul much with it and if you do start loading those small engines your MPG goes down in a hurry because they are not designed for lugging.

Cars cost more today because of all the requirements that are needed to be put in them. New cars need to meet strict standards for emissions and safety. Once you meet those you need to have the car attract buyers. Very few people want to buy a Ford Aspire or Chevy/Geo Metro anymore. If the sales are not there then how can you expect the car companies to sink millions into designing a new car that won't get many sales? Until the consumers start asking for a small car with great milage, you won't get one that is affordable.

The Suzuki Swift GT gets the same milage as the recent Ford Escort ZX2 that sold in the $9k range and Ford dropped the ZX2 because of lack of sales. Currently there are a few cars that should meet your requirements. The Honda Civic gets in the mid 30's and the hybrid version gets almost 50mpg. The Toyota Corolla and Echo get in the mid to high 30's and Chevy has the Aveo and Cavalier that get in the high 20's to mid 30's for a domestic. Ford has the Focus that gets similar to the Chevy's. There are a lot of cars to choose from still but you don't hear about them because people don't buy them.

Suzuki Swift Gas Mileage

sneaky_pete · Mar 10, 2005

( ...people living in apartments and condos driving around in huge SUVs really don't need an SUV. They just want one for the status.)

No one needs an SUV. We've been driving one or another for the last 15 years because our entire family (5 kids + foster children every now and then) can fit in one vehicle, but my great-grandfather had 13 kids and got by just fine without one. In this country, with our amazing standard of living, it's all about choice. People with leisure time and money are going to make some choices that might be bad for everyone else just because they can - it's human nature.

sneaky_pete · Mar 10, 2005

( I was looking at gas vs. diesel vs. hybrid last summer and put a spreadsheet together of all of my potential candidates.

I put in the fuel mileage of each vehicle, the cost of each vehicle and monthly payment, and the number of miles I drive per year. In the end, I got to see what the total cost of my payments and fuel costs would be each year for each vehicle.

Even though the hybrids used much less fuel, the cost of the car was much more. In the end, I bought the Cavalier and decided to put the $10,000 I saved on my purchase price towards any extra fuel costs I might incur from not buying the Civic hybrid.)

I went through the exact same exercise when we moved out where we are now and my commute distance tripled, and (surprise, surprise) the numbers show that it would take forever to recoup the initial investment of a hybrid vs. continuing to drive my 14 mpg but paid-for 14-year-old truck.

Beyond that, my solution was two-fold: ride my motorcycle to town whenever practical (50+ mpg), and I quit my job in the city and now consult from an office in my shop building.