Fuel follies

[Asymtave]

The ethanol subsidy from the federal gov't to ethanol producers is $1 per gallon I believe. So for every gallon of ethanol they sell Uncle Sam sends them a check for $1.

The ethanol industry is currently lobbying for the minimum requirement for ethanol in gasoline to be raised from 10% to 20%. The problem they have is that there is so much capacity being added that they will soon (this year) be producing more than enough ethanol to put 10% in every gallon of gas sold in the country.

So they have a problem - they'll have more ethanol than can be sold and will lose out on the gov't free money. There are simply not enough E85 (85% ethanol/15% gas) pumps out there, and if there were, people wouldn't buy it anyway for a couple of reasons.

Most automakers are protesting loudly over the proposed increase to 20% ethanol in gasoline. Older (meaning mid-90's or earlier?) vehicles would likely have issues with the fuel system. Automakers are likely concerned about the 100K mile emissions warranty they have to honor by law.

I'm not even slightly mad at the price of corn. What I am mad about is that I have to pay a tax on ethanol that I buy in the form of say, Vodka, and then the gov't turns around and hands my money to ADM! Making money coming and going indeed! All that good Vodka dumped into gas tanks and burned

 

[patrick_g]

It isn't the fine details that concern me personally. Folks worry (and argue) about the number of angels dancing on the heat of a pin or like in the case of the Lilliputians, which end of the boiled egg to remove at breakfast. I try to consider the bigger issues: 1. are there angels dancing on the head of a pin and if yes do they need to be counted and 2. Should we be eating a boiled egg for breakfast?

The issues that first attract my attention with Ethanol for motor fuel is what difference does it make in our total oil requirements and how does it impact the environment. Corn based ethanol doesn't save oil and only shifts the location where it is consumed. Little or no net benefit. You can create local minima and maxima but macroscopically you have not reduced dependence on foreign oil nor helped the environment.

Who profits, who gets political clout, and so forth would not be of interest if it didn't raise the price of food and cost me tax money with no benefits.

The basic concept of burning ethanol as motor fuel is a good idea if: 1. it saves oil and or 2. it helps the environment. If space aliens beamed ethanol into tanks on earth it would save oil and help the environment. A desirable solution lies somewhere between the SCIFI dream and ethanol from corn. An acceptable ethanol production process or infrastructure must produce significantly more energy than it takes to run so that we benefit in reduced foreign oil dependence and help our environment. Corn based ethanol doesn't do either and no process improvement or economic fluctuations within reason will let it achieve either goal.

Minor efficiency improvements in producing ethanol from corn aren't going to significantly alter the situation. We aren't going to make it up in volume. We are beating a dead horse.

A new paradigm is required, a process that will produce a positive net energy budget, something that produces more energy than it consumes. One day, hopefully not too far away, that will likely be fusion power which will enable the hydrogen for motor fuel process we need badly to help clean up our air but in the mean time we need an interim (mid term) solution. Ethanol is a good candidate motor fuel if and only if it can be produced without using as much energy in its production as it provides. Cellulose based ethanol production is a process that ACTUALLY CAN produce more energy than it consumes and pushing that process forward is so very much more important than the "PRETEND" world of corn based ethanol.

Pat

 

[dholly]

Most automakers are protesting loudly over the proposed increase to 20% ethanol in gasoline. Older (meaning mid-90's or earlier?) vehicles would likely have issues with the fuel system.

The problem is that ethanol attacks certain esters used in fiberglass fuel tank construction. Older boats and smaller aircraft able to run auto rather than avgas appear most effected. The breakdown of compounds creates a gelatinous sludge-like material that clogs fuel filters or, if it makes it to the engine, builds up on intake valves and ruins the engine. Boats can replace with aluminum tanks but wing flex precludes that on planes. This is a H-U-G-E flight safety concern and many small plane owners (including myself) are having to rip their planes apart to replace fiberglass wing tanks and other fuel system components with roto-molded poly tanks and ethanol safe lines and fittings at great expense. Even looking past THAT initial issue, usually water and fuel separate in layers in a fuel tank. In aircraft fuel systems, a gascolator is typically used to remove settled water, but ethanol absorbs water and can move it through the fuel system, causing rough running engines and possible stalling. Which might not be quite the problem in your car or boat as it is my plane... Thank YOU Uncle Sam.

 

[jsborn]

As the proud owner of several acres of pine trees I am happy to say there is a company breaking ground now on a cellulose to ethanol plant here in South Georgia now. I really don't know all the politics but I do know it will provide several hundred local jobs and even more construction jobs plus it should raise the price of pulpwood and other depressed wood products.

 

[patrick_g]

The problem is that ethanol attacks certain esters used in fiberglass fuel tank construction.

Wow, didn't know that. I replaced a tern plate coated steel gas tank (in sailboat) with epoxy/fiberglass. Couldn't use polyester because it was fairly permeable to gas and would fill the bilge with fumes.

What about butanol? It is much closer to gasoline than ethanol is and can be made from cellulose. It is less aggressive with respect to seals and such. Of course, in there infinite wisdom the Gov is backing ethanol from corn when cellulose should be used for feedstock and butanol is probably a better choice for target fuel than ethanol.

Is the problem you discuss only if you use "motor fuel" in the plane or is it a problem with "av gas" as well. I haven't flown for years and was still using red or blue av gas then (no ethanol content.)

Pat

 

[dholly]

Sorry Pat, I don't know about butanol. All I know is ethanol has cost me several thousands of dollars as a personal safety issue, something I am certain regulators failed to foresee when they mandated 5% ethanol as a fuel saving measure. Some guys are sloshing fiberglass tanks with Kreem, etc., but eventually the cap threads often cut or wear thu the filler neck threads. The result is fuel wicks down between the slosh coating and inside tank wall causing the coating to peel off in sheets and clog filters. You're darned if you do, darned if you don't.

 

[TiminMN]

There is no tax subside for the ethanol producer, there is a 51 cent blender tax credit per gallon. A few ethanol plants that sell E-85 direct of gas stations get this credit, most of the money goes to the oil company that mix the ethanol and gas together. Next year these companies will receive between 3 and 4 billion. Sounds like a lot until you consider the war in the middle east cost more than that in a week. If this county would have take a look where it's energy comes from 40 years ago maybe we wouldn't be in a mess we are today.

 

[EddieWalker]

It's been over five years, maybe six, but diesel is cheaper then gasoline. My local gas station next to my land is $2.77 for regular and $2.85 for diesel.

Eddie

 

[patrick_g]

Some guys are sloshing fiberglass tanks with Kreem, etc., but eventually the cap threads often cut or wear thu the filler neck threads. The result is fuel wicks down between the slosh coating and inside tank wall causing the coating to peel off in sheets and clog filters.

I have used Kreem a few times but always on well etched and prepared metal tanks. Adhesion on F/G when you can't get access to sand the whole thing to get "tooth" would be a problem.

My original tern plate coated tank had some kind of coating on the inside that eventually started to flake off. Boy, was that a nightmare! I changed filters, fuel lines, carb, and on and on and still the engine would go into fuel starvation at random intervals. Sure sure you say... it is a boat not an airplane so what is the big deal? When manuevering around large ships it is NOT GOOD to have the engine quit leaving you stranded in front of an A/C carrier, bulk carrier, or anything a jillion times your gross weight.

The coating flakes would get sucked across the pickup tube effectively shutting off the fuel at random intervals. Restarts were easy as the flake would fall away when the fuel pump quit sucking on it. Took a while (LOOOOONG while) to figure it out.

Pat

 

[coffeeman]

As the proud owner of several acres of pine trees I am happy to say there is a company breaking ground now on a cellulose to ethanol plant here in South Georgia now. I really don't know all the politics but I do know it will provide several hundred local jobs and even more construction jobs plus it should raise the price of pulpwood and other depressed wood products.

The corn used to make ethenol is then fed to cows etc. Is there any use for old cellulose after pricessing?

Cheers