fuel problem?
- Thread starter riley19d
- Start date
- Views: 9107
well i flushed the entire system, new fuel, bug treatment, and purged the system!NO CHANGE! following that i called the dealership and they think its the injector pump hopefully not, i removed the injectors and they were extremely dirty and caked with carbon so i took them apart soaked them and cleaned them up i put them back as close as i could to the same sitting, still no change so i took the caps off the injectors and loosened them up and tried again still nothing, took the caps back off and tightened them down, still no change, it is still starving for fuel, if i pump the primer it still runs fine but then it dies back down to an idle again so still no luck, i am convinced now that it is either the injectors or the injector pump. What is the adjustment for the injectors?
Rich Waugh
Platinum Member
YOU don't adjust the injectors - that can only be done (if at all) by a shop equipped with diagnostic equipment to determine the popping pressure, mist pattern, spray density, etc. Definitely not a job you can do by eye or ear or luck.
The same holds true of the injector pump itself - you can't service it. Only a shop with a Bacharach test bench setup can successfully work on an injection pump. Even then there's no guarantee - the pressures are very high and the tolerances are tiny and critical.
Did you remove the fuel shutoff from the tank and visually examine the screen? Did you check all the hoses visually to be sure they're not collapsing or shedding debris internally? Flushing alone won't clear crud out of fuel lines - it takes a pipe cleaner or cleaning brush run through them. Likewise for filter screens - they have to be brushed clean and blown clear. Ditto for all small passages anywhere in the system. It takes mechanical cleaning, not just a flush if you've got diesel bugs or other organic matter clogging the system.
I still think the system is suffering from an obstruction somewhere before the injector pump. Since it runs fine when you pump the priming pump, the injectors must be functioning at least somewhat satisfactorily and the injector pump is delivering enough pressure to pop the injectors and deliver fuel to the cylinders. Unless the lift pump is failing to supply fuel to the injection pump or the injection pump is incapable of drawing fuel in, the problem would seem to be a supply issue. That's my take on it, anyway.
Rich
The same holds true of the injector pump itself - you can't service it. Only a shop with a Bacharach test bench setup can successfully work on an injection pump. Even then there's no guarantee - the pressures are very high and the tolerances are tiny and critical.
Did you remove the fuel shutoff from the tank and visually examine the screen? Did you check all the hoses visually to be sure they're not collapsing or shedding debris internally? Flushing alone won't clear crud out of fuel lines - it takes a pipe cleaner or cleaning brush run through them. Likewise for filter screens - they have to be brushed clean and blown clear. Ditto for all small passages anywhere in the system. It takes mechanical cleaning, not just a flush if you've got diesel bugs or other organic matter clogging the system.
I still think the system is suffering from an obstruction somewhere before the injector pump. Since it runs fine when you pump the priming pump, the injectors must be functioning at least somewhat satisfactorily and the injector pump is delivering enough pressure to pop the injectors and deliver fuel to the cylinders. Unless the lift pump is failing to supply fuel to the injection pump or the injection pump is incapable of drawing fuel in, the problem would seem to be a supply issue. That's my take on it, anyway.
Rich
Last edited:
greg_g
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,126
- Location
- Western Kentucky
- Tractor
- JD3720 Cab, 300X loader with 4-in-1 bucket
If it runs - even temporarily - there's no problem with the injectors. Or the injection pump for that matter. How long does it run for? Several minutes? If yes, then your hand primer is filling the fuel filter - which in turn is feeding the injection pump. Sounds however, like the lift pump is not refilling the filter. When the filter housing gets sucked dry, the engine quits.
Unfortunately, you can't simply replace the lift pump component of the fuel delivery assembly (what many folks refer to as the "injection pump"). because it's more convenient. And I'll explain that; the fuel delivery assembly consists of a low pressure side and a high pressure side. Lift pump, hand primer are on the LP side. They send fuel through the filter to the HP side. It consists of the actual injection pump component. But the components cannot be purchased/installed separately. You're stuck buying the whole dang $600 assembly.
//greg//
Unfortunately, you can't simply replace the lift pump component of the fuel delivery assembly (what many folks refer to as the "injection pump"). because it's more convenient. And I'll explain that; the fuel delivery assembly consists of a low pressure side and a high pressure side. Lift pump, hand primer are on the LP side. They send fuel through the filter to the HP side. It consists of the actual injection pump component. But the components cannot be purchased/installed separately. You're stuck buying the whole dang $600 assembly.
//greg//
i thoroughly flushed the tank, replaced the whole fuel bowl assembly and the screen in the tank, replaced the hose to the primer, and the screen in the banjo fitting as for all the other lines i have removed them and blown them out, i replaced the fuel filter and blew out all the return lines, when i crack the return line bolts loose on top of the injectors and prime it i get good fuel flow out of the bolts and when its running i cracked the supply lines loose to the injectors and i also get good fuel flow with the engine running which makes me want to believe that the injector pump is ok and maybe a couple of the injectors are bad. I dont believe anymore its a restriction problem because i have good fuel flow, i think it may be a lack of pressure? i am stumped and extremely frustrated!
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Yes, you can purchase the lift pump separately. Bought one from Tommy recently. Something like $40.00 + shipping (which wasn't much).
BTW, the new lift pump comes with a new primer pump.
Last edited:
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
What I found on mine was that the corrosiveness of the bugs had pitted the check valve seats in the lift pump so bad (and also the PRV on the fuel injection pump) That the lift pump would not work effectively above an idle, and the system would not hold pressure. Just running the engine over ~700 r/m would deplete the available fuel.
Video #1 shows the effect of a defective lift pump:
YouTube - Lift pump 1.mpg
Video #2 shows after the lift pump and PRV were replaced.
YouTube - New valve 1.mpg
I set the PRV a little high in the video, I have since lowered it to 35 psig.
Engine runs like a swiss watch now.
:licking::thumbsup:
greg_g
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,126
- Location
- Western Kentucky
- Tractor
- JD3720 Cab, 300X loader with 4-in-1 bucket
well i spent several hours pressure washing and rinsing with clean fuel and i did completely remove the screen in the tank and the screen in the banjo bolt.
i looked at ranch hand supply and it doesnt look like they carry parts for the 454 my engine is a 3105ABT are you sure the lift pump is part of the primer on mine i have found the primer assembly but it doesnt say anything about the lift pump.
i looked at ranch hand supply and it doesnt look like they carry parts for the 454 my engine is a 3105ABT are you sure the lift pump is part of the primer on mine i have found the primer assembly but it doesnt say anything about the lift pump.
Rich Waugh
Platinum Member
Bob said he got the lift pump from Tommy - that would be Affordable Tractor Sales, not Ranch Hand Supply. Both are great dealers. While you may not necessarily find some particular item shown online, if you give them a call they often have what you need.
Rich
Rich
Last edited:
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Um, good question... Tommy, and Phil at Circle G, both show them in their online catalogues.
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Show us a picture of what you have. Does it have a large slim hex nut on the side of it, with two banjo bolts underneath, and is attached to the fuel injection pump with three 6mm studs and nuts in a triangular pattern? Normally they are sold together, but you can also get the hand primer pump separately.
Tommy's parts catalog is here:
https://affordabletractorsalesco.com/cart/catalog.php?cid=106&category=Parts Center
Phillip's catalog is here:
http://shop.circlegtractorparts.com/
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
That's true. I forgot to mention that.
greg_g
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,126
- Location
- Western Kentucky
- Tractor
- JD3720 Cab, 300X loader with 4-in-1 bucket
Can't find a $40 lift pump at either site. No lift pumps at all actually. I did find hand primers at both, all notably more than $40. Found lift pump shafts at Circle G. What am I missing? Cuz if a (new) boxed lift pump component is truly available, I'd like to be able to point others in the right direction in their time of need.
That said, the half million dollar TY395E3 engine (complete) is kinda fun. https://affordabletractorsalesco.com/cart/sub_catalog_gallery.php?cid=1771&catid=106&picid=1911&category=Parts%20Center&sub_category=Engine%20TY395&scid=115
//greg//
Last edited:
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
The tank has to be 100% completely free of moisture before you introduce fresh fuel into it. That means it has to be warmed with a heat lamp or baked in an oven, not blown out with compressed air. The bugs will just love any amount of moisture to set up housekeeping again. So if you feel what you have done is adequate, then please accept my apologies, but I have been down this road before, as a Cat field mechanic and as a marine engineer.
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Here is Phillip's lift pump/primer assembly (kinda dark pic but all there):
Fuel Line Priming Pump
I see Tommy doesn't have them listed now. May be out of stock.
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Phillip's is $80.00. Maybe prices have gone up?
greg_g
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,126
- Location
- Western Kentucky
- Tractor
- JD3720 Cab, 300X loader with 4-in-1 bucket
I see we're talking about completely different "lift pumps". Yes, technically the hand primer is a lift pump, albeit manual. I've been talking about the shaft driven lift pump that the manual hand primer is bolted to; the low pressure half of the engine driven fuel delivery system. And you're right, $80 doesn't seem right either. I put one on my '85 Mercedes turbo diesel 16 years ago for ~$15. Even today I can still get one for $26. http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/aut...pump/cohline_hand_primer_pump.html?3593=52927 . Since it's metric, I strongly suspect it would screw right on to my Chinese tractors too.
That said, I see a lot more hardware in the Circle G picture than the actual hand primer itself. Since I've never worked specifically on a TY395 fuel system, perhaps "fuel line priming pump" incorrectly describes that particular $80 item. Is there a chance that's the actual lift pump component - WITH hand primer attached?
//greg//
Last edited:
well im going to for sure try a lift/primer first and see if that does it, and i know you all might think im an idiot for doing so but when i cleaned the injectors yesterday i did take them apart and flush them out, it ran better afterwards and then i began to adjust them to see how it would run the tighter they were the worse it ran when i loosened them up it runs fine until i put a load on it there for i know it is definately not making enough pressure to open the injectors as i said it runs better when i pump the primer so that shows me that it is bleeding off and with the fuel leaking past the shaft i believe it is loseing it at the primer so i am going to try it first before i spend $700 as i said thanks for everything and dont worry about offending me i have thick skin you are just trying to help and i appreciate it.
rdbigfarmboy
Gold Member
I use a 12 to 14 psi electric fuel pump its an inline cheap (70$). It might cause a few leaks or drip but it will keep fuel flowing.
I would probably forget the manual supply or lift pump. Do check the oil supply in the governor if you have one. and the oil supply in the injector pump.
Check you injector distributor pump take the injectors out then put them back on the fuel lines spin the motor let em spray. Not a opening pressure check but you will be able to see if they work and if the pattern is fine or coarse. A good fuel supply throttle open should give a fine mist.
Carbonized injectors are probably OK soak em in brake fluid clean em and use.
It just sound like a leak at: connections, hose, filter, filter bowl, or copper washer.
Find the real problem before you throw money at it
I would probably forget the manual supply or lift pump. Do check the oil supply in the governor if you have one. and the oil supply in the injector pump.
Check you injector distributor pump take the injectors out then put them back on the fuel lines spin the motor let em spray. Not a opening pressure check but you will be able to see if they work and if the pattern is fine or coarse. A good fuel supply throttle open should give a fine mist.
Carbonized injectors are probably OK soak em in brake fluid clean em and use.
It just sound like a leak at: connections, hose, filter, filter bowl, or copper washer.
Find the real problem before you throw money at it
