FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal

[TomSeller]

No one is going to outlaw it. The opposite will be true. The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it. You don't see every food product made on every grocer's shelf. Just the products that move consistently. The majority of folks have no issues with ethanol in gasoline, except maybe on principle. There is relatively few folks that have any actual mechanical problems that can be directly attributed to ethanol in gas. So, there is not going to ever really be that significant demand for ethanol free gas. So to that end, those that only want to use gas only, will have a more difficult time getting it. The gooberment is not as pure as the wind driven snow in this matter, but it also is basic economics at play. There are pluses and minuses to every fuel there is. No fuel is without problems, just different. It costs a significant amount of money to have additional storage tanks for extra types of fuels. And a lot of places are not going to carry more than a regular with ethanol and a premium (probably also with ethanol). At best, maybe a mid grade also. It just isn't cost effective for all stations to offer more than that, because the volume of sales don't justify it. Especially when you factor in that regular, ethanol free gas, is usually a few cents more in cost. Many folks focus in on the lowest price they can get at the pump. Very few people are purists about their vehicles and get all caught up in the arcane details over fuels and oils.

Sounds like something a gooberment worker would say. Ethanol in our gas is a gooberment boondoggle

 

[PoorPlowboy]

Next thing you know chainsaws and handheld power equipment will gain 5 lbs and $100 cost for a closed evap system in order to safely use corn gas.

 

[Diamondpilot]

No one is going to outlaw it. The opposite will be true. The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it. You don't see every food product made on every grocer's shelf. Just the products that move consistently. The majority of folks have no issues with ethanol in gasoline, except maybe on principle. There is relatively few folks that have any actual mechanical problems that can be directly attributed to ethanol in gas. So, there is not going to ever really be that significant demand for ethanol free gas. So to that end, those that only want to use gas only, will have a more difficult time getting it. The gooberment is not as pure as the wind driven snow in this matter, but it also is basic economics at play. There are pluses and minuses to every fuel there is. No fuel is without problems, just different. It costs a significant amount of money to have additional storage tanks for extra types of fuels. And a lot of places are not going to carry more than a regular with ethanol and a premium (probably also with ethanol). At best, maybe a mid grade also. It just isn't cost effective for all stations to offer more than that, because the volume of sales don't justify it. Especially when you factor in that regular, ethanol free gas, is usually a few cents more in cost. Many folks focus in on the lowest price they can get at the pump. Very few people are purists about their vehicles and get all caught up in the arcane details over fuels and oils.

You are so wrong. Go to any mower shop or marina and talk to the guys there. I am in the marine business and maintain about 75 motors. It keeps lots of money in my pocket so for me ethanol and it's problems are a good thing.

I will agree with you on stores carry what is in demand but to say there is no issues with ethanol is crazy.

Chris

 

[DarkBlack]

The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it.

You deserve an award for the most ignorant post... ever made on TBN.

 

[KiotiKowboy]

You deserve an award for the most ignorant post... ever made on TBN.

Geeeez - Brutal much?

Demand matters, but only when the demand is enforced by action.

 

[DarkBlack]

Demand matters, but only when the demand is enforced by action.

Product demand has nothing to do with enforcement. 'Availability' can be related to enforcement, such as the 'availability' of ethanol.

 

[DarkBlack]

Demand:
Investopedia.
An economic principle that describes a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service.

 

[KiotiKowboy]

Product demand has nothing to do with enforcement. 'Availability' can be related to enforcement, such as the 'availability' of ethanol.

You misunderstand my point.

Ethanol is being pushed on a mostly unwilling populace through government FORCE. You and I can "demand" by purchasing all supplies and it will ultimately make ZERO difference - as government has already decided the issue for you. On the other hand, we can "demand" by speaking out, making calls, banging on doors and ultimately removing Marxists from office by whatever means required - and, THAT will make a difference.

 

[3930dave]

Dave, your general contentions are correct, to a point. The first, the fuel tax deal governments benefit from due to decreased mpg, is not long lasting. Cummins, GM, and others have engines in testing phase right now, that get better hp and torque than current crop of engines, at a lower displacement, along with as good or better mpg than current engines running gas, and doing it all on E85. GM's 3.2L EBDI engine in testing now, gets the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, and better mpg, on E85. Cummins 2.8L inline 4 banger, currently in testing, has 450 lb torque (better than most small V8's) and as good or better mpg, again, from E85.

Phase separation can indeed happen. Does it happen frequently? Not that you would notice. Folks in the midwest, with their wet winters, and humid summers, have been using ethanol blends from E10, E20, E30, on up to E85 for decades and phase separation is something that hardly ever comes up. Most folks have no clue what it is, and if it were occurring frequently, they would. True, ethanol will blend with water and cause phase separation, but unless you are introducing water into the fuel tank, it is not really an issue. All vehicle fuel systems and tanks are closed, non vented systems. My advice... don't pour water into your fuel tank. Only put fuel in it. Some marine and small engine problems could occur, but usually because of long term storage in the tank and vented tanks. That is a recipe for condensation issues, and that could cause a problem combined with ethanol. But it could also cause a problem even with regular gas. Now, I will concede that a fuel station could have issues with their storage tanks and it cause a problem. After all, we do not live in a perfect world. But it sure seems to be extremely rare.

E15, it is still too early in the game to make a full conclusive determination if it is a problem. The USDA and DOT have done a lot of testing and not found any conclusive data that shows E15 is a problem in vehicles produced in the last 10 years.

True, problems with ethanol can occur, just like they can if someone gets a bad batch of gas or diesel. The ethanol folks have had a standing offer to pay off anyone with, best I recall, $250,000 if they can prove conclusively that an ethanol blended fuel actually was the prime culprit in a fuel related problem. So far, no one has won the prize. Usually it is found that conditions that had nothing to do with the ethanol itself was the true culprit. like vented fuel systems, improper storage, etc.

I have no issue with anyone who doesn't want to buy the stuff. I have no dog in that hunt. I like ethanol blends, and have used them in everything from lawn mowers, chain saws, generators, and vehicles for a long, long time, with not one fuel related problem. But I do somewhat take issue with arguments that are based on internet folklore or some rare situation that we do not know all the facts surrounding the case. If ethanol were such a problem, there would have been a hue and cry come up from the public a long time ago. But except for a few outspoken folks and the oil companies themselves, you hardly hear a peep from anyone else. Day after day, year round, for decades, a high percentage of the buying public have filled their tanks with E10, at least, with hardly any issues occurring.

It makes it real hard to buy into the fear and conspiracy regarding ethanol.

I do welcome real technical advances, and look forward to learning more about the engines you describe - I for one appreciate you mentioning them. Full pursuit of ethanol use was done a long time ago in Brazil.... I'm aware that it can be successfully used.... my personal irritation lies with the consequences of mixed fuel use in our markets, esp. on older engines.

There are a few vectors at play here..... General Govt desires for increased taxes, Corn Politics, and (with my tin-foil hat firmly pulled down ) the ability of new fuel formulations to hurry along the demise of older engine technologies - there is a general economic turnover arguement for this, as well as the "Environmental" aspect of marching this migration along. I've never liked being "gamed", esp. on expensive items.....

"If ethanol were such a problem, there would have been a hue and cry come up from the public a long time ago. But except for a few outspoken folks and the oil companies themselves, you hardly hear a peep from anyone else. "

Awareness vs. Ignorance..... Plenty of people ignore oil changes often, and some people never bother changing anti-freeze, ATF, hydraulic fluid, diff or transfer case oil........

Aside from gearhead geeks like us here, and on other forums, (maybe 5% of the population ?) the general public wouldn't know an ethanol related problem if they fell over it. Recent post about somebody's MH being OD'd on ethanol due to a blending error being an obvious exception.

These blending errors happen more often than you might think, and highlights the impact of ethanol well. Other additives (ex. detergents) can probably float up and down in concentration (OK, so your injectors got a little extra cleaning this tank.....) with little serious impact; not so with ethanol.

There is no one magic elixir for fuel use.... as I've said b4, if somebody's fuelling practices (with or w/o your own additives used) are working well, stick with what works for you...... if you are having headaches, do some research, and make some adjustments to your fuelling - Repeat cycle as needed.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

It keeps lots of money in my pocket so for me ethanol and it's problems are a good thing.
Chris

As I say to my pro-wrench buddy, about one large car manufacturer's Production Engineering practices....

Nahhh, it's not a design defect, it's an annuity !

:greedy: :cool2:

Rgds, D.