Furious over citation

Anonymous Poster · Apr 2, 2003

cowboydoc: Since you are obviously an intelligent, "responsible" person, and since you obviously didn't get the point I was making, the fault must lie with the way I expressed it.

In 1932 a citizen walking down the street with a gold bar in their pocket was a perfectly legal citizen while a person with a flask of whiskey in their pocket was a "criminal" subject to being sent of to jail. One year later their situations were totally reversed and the guy with the gold bar became a criminal. Can any rational person claim that there was any intrinsic "right" or "wrong" to these type of make-believe crimes? Laws are enforced by the use of violence perpetrated by the state against the individual-they (laws) have consequences. Enforcement is often arbitrary for the financial gain of the enforcers. I recall having lunch with my attorney some while back and he was telling me about a case he was handling where a lady had her grandson living with her and the grandson had placed some "illegal" substance in a desk in her home where she had her savings account book (with her life savings in it!!!). The police "confiscated" (stole!) her life savings over something she had no knowledge of. My lawyer friend was trying to get it back for her. Cowboydoc, you have no idea of what is going on in this country. From your bio you have a large operation and lots of property. What if they passed some new "environmental" law which had the effect of wiping out your operation? It happens. Without property rights there can be no freedom. And property rights are being destroyed all around you-if you have not been affected by it YET, good for you. How? By make-believe laws, by guilt, by "good" people who simply want to "obey the law" and live their lives.

You mentioned "changing" the laws. Perhaps you have the power to do that, I do not. In any event, the problem is not with the laws, but rather the thinking processes that cause the laws-laws are an effect, not a cause. And, I do have some limited power to affect that. I have ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. It is too late to "fight" now because the corruption has spread too far. There is a cliche something to the effect that "when they came for someone in the next block I didn't worry because I didn't know them and so didn't help them, when they came for my nieghbor I didn't help because I didn't want to get involved, and, when they came for me there was no one to help."

JEH

cowboydoc · Apr 2, 2003

I understood you the first time. No need for anymore explanations. You can make an excuse for breaking any law. Doesn't make it right. I just don't share your doom and gloom. It's never too late to fight. A handful of revolutionary's fought the entire country of England against all odds. Anybody in this country has the rights and the opp. to change things. It's just if you want to talk about it and make excuses or you want to act on it. Look at history. Illegal land confiscation has been going on since the world began. Things are no different today than they have ever been.

Wingnut · Apr 2, 2003

sticking my nose in for the sake of sticking my nose in .... I just had to rspond to one comment, Richard (not poiling on you ...!)
 Illegal land confiscation has been going on since the world began 
That's an excellant example of the laws that you want to obey and think you can change: Eniment Domain. Legally , the government, at any level, can decide to take you land AND decide what it's worth. A perfect example of laws passed purely to benefit a select few at the expense of the rest of society.
The books are full of arbitrarily passed laws that Joe Citizen has no say over. We obey them out of fear of the consequences ... not out of a love for law.

pete

MikePA · Apr 2, 2003

A response to no one in particular... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

From the time God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree in the garden except from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, human beings have had three options when presented with a law;

1. Obey it.
2. Disobey it.
3. Try and change it.

If we choose Option 2, then we have to accept the consequences.

If we choose Option 3, and we get enough people who agree with us, then the law gets changed via the democratic process. It hasn't been that long ago that segregation was legal. Many people endured the consequences, some to the point of death, of disobeying these laws.

Also since the garden of Eden, human beings have tried to avoid the consequences of choosing Option 2 by rationalizing their actions.

Wingnut · Apr 3, 2003

Interesting ... but I see no correlation whatsoever between God's law (or nature's law if you're an atheistic, agnostic or "other) ... and law's enacted by us imperfect humans. And especiaqlly imperfect laws applied imperfectly by biased humans.
And just to set the record straight, I'm on the "pay the ticket" side ... because it'll cost less in the long run ... and lead to a lot fewer ulcers (i.e. it'll be over quicker)

pete

MikePA · Apr 3, 2003

The correlation, as I see it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif , is our reaction to laws, regardless of where they originate.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 4, 2003

Wingnut: You get it. Cowboydoc either doesn't, or, he does and he's afraid of the implications. Further, right/wrong, moral/immoral, good/bad do not exist APART FROM SOME STANDARD which becomes the basis for making the evaluation. And those standards are too often implied (and unstated) and "assumed" when judgments of right/wrong are made. Too often, when we say something is "right" we ASSUME that the standard in our brain (which we are using to make the judgment of "right") is the same in other brains. Example from current events: the survival of western civilization as currently constituted requires a regular supply of oil. If your standard of value is the survival and continued dominence of western civilization then the current war to secure the oil of the middle east is a "good" thing (when judged against the standard). On the other hand, if your standard is the weakening of western civilization then the war is a "bad" thing. It depends on the standards (too often unstated). My standard is (in the context of this discussion) human freedom. Property is more than just land. Laws (legislated), in the end, are efforts by some to control the "property" (in the broadest meaning of the word property) of others. Human freedom is based on property rights. And those are being erroded all around you.

Further, we live in a "democracy" in which "the people" are permitted to vote. Remember the spectical of the 2000 elections? People who were so stupid they couldn't figure out how to punch a hole in the ballot supposedly had some "right" to help decide the fate of the country! Absurd. Since every social system that exists today, has ever existed in the past, or, will ever exist in the future is hierarchical, and since there are always more people lower down on the food chain than higher up on the food chain politicians get elected through appeals to envy. Cowboydoc talks about the revolutionary war (I have ancestors who fought in the war) but doesn't seem to understand how the system was supposed to work. The so-called "balance of power" in government was for the purpose of not allowing any social/economic group to run riot over everything. The senate was originally supposed to protect the interests of the propertied classes (senators were originally APPOINTED, not directly elected), while the house was elected more frequently to protect the so-called common folks. Each could check the other. The concept of balance of power within the state was derived from a Greek historical writer, Polybius, who described the success of the Roman state and was read by the founding fathers in America. That has all changed now and is, in effect, mob rule (one man, one vote).

Finally, we have the intrinsic problem of entropy-an absolute law of physics. Each of our lives starts in struggle, we work and advance, to the extent we are successful we tend to become complacent, soft and weak, then, we decay and decline. So too, civilizations. What we are going through is, except for technology, little different than what happened to the Romans. The point of no return was probably passed when 600,000 Americans were slaughtered in the 1860s to maintain central control in Washington, or, at the very least it was certainly passed in the 1960s. We are at the point where there is heavy "thought" control over people. Example, there was a piece in the news just today where an official here in Missouri (St Louis) was forced to "resign" because he had made an "insensitive" joke on his lunch hour (in his own car!).

You can bury your head in the sand and pretend what is happening is not really happening (because you feel uncomfortable about it). But wishful thinking doesn't change reality. The most basic form of property is your money. Look at what you use for money today and in the past. Look at coins pre-civil war and after (pre civil war coins did not have "In God We Trust" on them). Look at the coins your grandparents (or great grandparents) used 100 years ago-gold and silver. Look at coins of the Romans from the assention of Octavian through Marcus Aurelius and then see how they were using clad (counterfeit-silvery on the outside and copper on the inside) coins less than 50 years later. Wishful thinking can't change reality.

Again, Wingnut, I am willing to state my standard, to wit: freedom, property and individual rights. Anything that serves those standards is "good", anything that damages them is "bad", including arbitrary legislated "laws". I don't know what the standards are for someone who, in effect, says "the law, right or wrong."

Interesting how a thread that started with some guy who was mad because he felt he had been ripped off (he was) and wanted to fight it, and who was criticized for his lack of "responsibility" can evolve into a discussion of the broad sweep of history, law, etc. Take care.

JEH

Bird · Apr 4, 2003

( You get it. Cowboydoc either doesn't, or, he does and he's afraid of the implications. )

In other words, those who don't agree 100% with your "philosophy" just don't get it, huh? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif I realize you'd never consider the rest of us mere mortals to be on your intellectual plane, but we might understand more than you realize. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

gerard · Apr 4, 2003

I dissagree with a whole bunch of laws, most related to taxes but that doesn't mean I'm not going to pay them. I think we have way too many laws and we only seem to get more as time goes on. Don't see many get repealed. But we weren't talking hypotheticals OR a silly law that probably shouldn't be on the books to start with. We were talking about a light out. He didn't say the light wasn't out. He just disagreed with the fine and some here seemed to encourage him to manipulate the system to the max to get out of the ticket. Well you can do that but it only adds to the cost of an already inefficient system. If you feel that strongly about a law I'd encourage you to work within the system to change the law or fine structure. Thats democracy in action, not adding to the problem for personal gain. Democracy, while it may be the best form of government to live under, is also the most inefficient. Checks and balances are great. It also means everything is a compromise and very little actually gets done. (The most efficient form of government is a dictatorship. The trick is getting the RIGHT dictator. Since no ones been able to do that yet I guess I'll stick with our system. ) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JohnMiller3 · Apr 4, 2003

A smile uses less muscles... than a frown...

… Interesting how a thread that started… can evolve into a discussion of the broad sweep of history, law, etc ….

I wholeheartedly agree grimreaper…

Perhaps, being around “Death” all the time in your occupation has taken its toll…

You really should “lighten up” a bit… being “negative” most of the time weighs heavy on one’s soul…

Being “positive” in life is much better medicine… /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif