Future Land Clearing Project

[johnnyringo]

I recently acquired 80 acres of unimproved timberland. With this purchase and a tractor it has pretty much left me with little cash to make improvements to the land (i.e. partial clearing,ponds,fence). I need cash flow!!! I was thinking about selling the timber and the highest offer came in at $19,000 and that would go a long ways for what I'm wanting to do.

My question is about logging and clearing land afterwards. I have always been told that the only thing that will take stumps out after logging are excavators and that they are very pricey to hire. I want to clear approximately 35 acres in patches scattered here and there and leave the rest but don't want to be stuck with a stump farm. Also it's not that I really want to get rid of the trees it's just that it would be several years out before I could do anything with the land without this cash.

I guess I didn't ask a direct question but I think you get the idea. I have heard horror stories about people having their place logged off and an trying to avoid that. Any comments and guidance are greatly appreciated.

By the way I love this site. The projects forum has given me a ton of ideas for my property. I look forward to posting pictures of my property when I get started.

 

[ScottAR]

You need an independent forester with a forestry plan for your property. They can be as involved as much or little as you want. Read that as they can handle the entire sale or just make out the plan.

Since they would be working for you, their best interest is your land and any future logging that will be done.

This is the best way to insure a good clean job with little to no unsightly mess left behind.

Forestry Forum has lots of good ideas and people. There's a lot to take in and think about.

 

[teg]

You need to get a forester out there to know what you really have. I don't know where or what type of trees we are talking about but that sounds low for 35 acres. A forester can mark the trees and get a count as to how many board feet you are selling.

 

[rico304]

You must first make sure you are dealing with a person that has a solid reputation in the business. That should be easy enough to do by contacting your local warden or ranger.
You don't have to do a clear cut either. I had selective cut done to my property. That means they cut roads into the woods, and they have machines that can reach in and get trees from approx. 15 feet into the woods around them.
Depending on the makeup and other factors, you can aske them to clear stumps as well. Some will, others won't. It does take from your earnings though. You can have branches hauled back to a central location and they can burn/chip them. In my case, they used the branches to fill in where the muddy wet areas were for traction for the skidder. I had certain areas stumped, certain areas with debris hauled away, and other areas just cut and left as is. I also marked areas I wanted them to cut, and (in a different color) areas that I wanted them to leave alone. I had the owner walk me around other sites similiar to mine that he had just cut. That way I got an idea what I wanted to have them do on my property. I would suggest against clear cut. I think that damages the land and it never seems to grow back properly unless you do a lot of work planting.

 

[dmccarty]

Get a forester to work for you.

Get a forester to work for you.

Get a forester to work for you.

You need a timber cruise. This is an inventory of ALL of the marketable trees on your land. They should break into down so that you know how many thousand board feet of each specie you own. Mine had it broken down by the tree diameter as well.

The forester works for YOU. Like a real estate agent.

Check your state's department of forestry to see if they have a book on Timbering Best Management Practices(BMP). When you sell the timber you should have a closing just like buying/selling a house. As part of the contract the timber buyer agrees to the BMP and any other issues you want.

NC state also has a 800 number that provides the market value of timber from the previous quarter.

We sold our timber by seal bid auction. The forester sends out the cruise information as well as any limitations/requirements you have to buyers. They show up at the sale time and put in their bids. Higest bid wins.

You pay taxes on the timber sale based on your origional basis. See the timbertax website at Purdue for more info or get a CPA that knows this area of tax law. Timber Tax website.

I did not have the loggers clean up. They had to place the decking operation in specific location(s). I figured that their business it to cut trees not clean stumps and I wanted to maximize our cash at that time. I can clean up later. I have pushed most of the slash into piles. After my parents build a house I think we will pay to have a tub grinder come in and make a pile of chips.

I think the logging business has alot of con artists. I have read of too many horror stories. Interview a couple foresters and pick the one you like. I was talking with a lady at work who had inherited some land along with other family members. A logger knocked on her sisters door and offered to buy the timber for $x. He contacted my friend who was iffy on selling but the logger offered her twice as much money as her sister. He also said he would reseed the land as well.

I doubt he paid anywhere near what the timber was worth to my friend but it was twice what her sister received. And you don't reseed timber you replant. I'm sure he did not replant he just let momma nature do its thing.

Be danged careful about timbering your land. There are some real bad sharks looking for your trees.

Later,
Dan

 

[Highbeam]

I'll try a different angle to add to and not detract from the others.

A trackhoe/excavator is the best tool to remove, stack, and burn stumps. On a per hour basis they are no more expensive than a dozer and they are more effective and leave less damage to the land. A dozer is how stumping was done, also dynamite, for a long time so there are other options. The trackhoe is the best tool and in the end, the cheapest tool for cleanup of logging debris including stumps.

The logger is there to log. He is not a landscaper. You can expect him to take the logs and leave the rest unless you pay him extra to spend extra time cleaning up and stumping.

I had a logger come and log about 3 acres of land. He knew from the start that all stumps and slash would be dug up and burnt so he harvested the trees in a different manner. Basicly he didn't cut any trees down he plucked them all out and then bucked out the logs.

In my area land is cleared for 2000$ per acre. If, while clearing they harvest timber, the value of the timber counts towards the 2000$ per acre. In my case, I had to throw some money in the pot to square up with the logger since the harvested timber value was not high enough to cover the bill.

2000$ per acre times your desired 35 acres is 70,000$. You will not get your 35 acres of land cleared if the timber is only worth 19000$. Instead, you will end up with 10 acres cleared and 70 acres of stumpfield.

You're strapped for cash. If you want to build a home in the clearing then make the land clearing part of the construction loan and save the trees in other areas. I would not even log an area that you did not intend to convert to pasture or permanent clearing by stumping. Over time, you can clear and stump as you find funds. Eventually you will get to the 35 acre mark. If you do it all now by hiring it out you will miss out on the fun.

 

[Wesdor]

As many others have said, get a forester. That sounds a bit low if you have any amount of timber.

A different direction than others have mentioned - All the loggers will take is the butt cut. You will probably be left with a large amount of tops which need to be cleaned up. I suggest you consider cutting those into firewood. It is hard work and doesn't pay much if you figure by the hour, but I think you need to use everything.

The next thing would be to rent a chipper and turn everything under firewood size into mulch.

You won't be getting rich on the work, but at least you will make the most of the trees you remove.

BTW - where are you located? Perhaps you are too far south for firewood.

 

[Clyde]

John - All of the other replies to your thread about a forester are right on the mark. All I can add to any of it, is to be realistic as to the final results. You are vague as to the wood you have to harvest or where you are located. Please fill out your profile at least to the point as to where you are located. You will be left with stumps from any trees harvested. Brush piles from the tops are to be expected and the logger can pile "most" of these into scattered piles. If you want to clean up the rest of it with a rake - that's your problem. Firewood is a definite option and if we knew your location certainly would have helped. There are a plethoria of firewood havesters that will come in and clean up anything harvestable to them but not a lot of money in that. None the less, I think they are doing you a favor in cleaning up. Chippers speed up the decomposition supplied by nature but a brush pile serves as habitat for the wild animals. Scrub oak and brush has little wholesale value. Railroad ties are the best you might expect from scrub oak along with firewood. None of us know what you have to sell as you didn't explain. Bottom line is that a registered forester is your first step in the process.

Best of luck and keep us informed - Clyde

 

[johnnyringo]

Ok more info:

I live in Northeastern Oklahoma right along the Arkansas border near Siloam Springs, AR. The timber is primarily hardwood...red oak, white oak. All three bids I received were taking 14" and up so it wasn't what I classify as clearcut but judging from what other post logging properties I've seen it pretty much takes everything. They leave trees but they are very tall and skinny. The scrub stuff.

Is it possible that sometimes logging ends up costing you more than the proceeds because of the cleanup? Am I better off just having the 35 or so acres I want cleared and not be logged off at all and just dozed? I have asked around about dozer work and for a d6 or d7 class dozer I was quoted anywhere from 75 to 100 dollars per hour. That money would come out of my pocket and not from any timber sales as anticipated but would it actually save money in the long run?

I would be willing to cut some of the firewood but I only have time to do that on the weekends and 80 acres of slash would certainly be overwhelming. I'm not against rolling up my sleeves and going to work but after clearing about five acres with my tractor a stihl chainsaw and my bare hands I found out that heavy equipment is in order. The old settlers must have been tough as nails. No wonder there weren't any fat people 100 years ago!!!

 

[Wesdor]

First of all, let me apologize for not welcoming you to the forum. You will find a lot of great information and people here. WELCOME!

Sounds to me like the people giving you bids are doing what is called "high grading". Basically they take the most lucrative trees without caring about the forest.
Ron Wenrich (a forester) has said, "Good forest management has more to do with what is left, than what is taken."

You might get a few dollars by destroying your current timber, but in the long run I imagine you will be better off if you have a professional help you build a plan to manage your timber.

Good luck.