Future Land Clearing Project

[ToadHill]

Just a brief story. I took a course offerred several years ago by Cornell U. called Master Forest Owner training. They gave an example of the value of getting a forester involved in any decision to sell timber. They introduced a farmer who was in the market for some new equipment and was offerred $18,000 for some timber on his property. A neighbor talked him into getting a forester to work with him in the timber sale. The same timber stand went to the high bidder for $42,000. When the logger showed up to begin to cut, it was the same person who had origionally offerred the $18,000.

If your concern is the condition of the land when the logging is finished you really need a forester. They will include an upfront payment in any contract based on a percentage of the timber value. The logger only gets the upfront payment back when the cleanup is finished.

 

[EddieWalker]

In my area of East Texas, it's proven beyond my abilities to get a logger to come in and take the trees I want to get rid of. I was even giving them away to one guy, but he disapeared after a few loads.

Most never even show up and the others only want to do it their way. They all say the same thing. It cost them so much money to bring out their equipment that it has to be worth their while.

From the land owners I've talked to, I hear the same story every time. For what you make off the lumber, it costs just as much or more to clean up your land afterwards. If you can find a logger that will remove all the stumps and grade the dirt in exchange for the trees, you're doing pretty good.

I still ask around, but so far, it's easier and faster to just pull aside the good oaks and cedars, then burn everything else.

Eddie

 

[Highbeam]

"Is it possible that sometimes logging ends up costing you more than the proceeds because of the cleanup?"

It is more than possible, it is probable. Only the most valuable stands of prime timber would reap enough timber proceeds to pay for clearing the ground the forest sets on.

Of course the "cleanup" as you say means different things to different people. Removing the stumps, burning all the slash and other vegetation in the stand so basicly it can be smoothed out and turned into a field will cost you out of pocket.

 

[vetteman]

My FIL owns a company that owns about 20,000 in S NY and N Pa. We have a forestry consultant firm and they mark the trees and send out the bids on the timber. Some of the stipulations in the bids are the ground has to be frozen or dry ,no excessive ruts and when the y are done the trails have to be leveled and seeded if necessary. They dont have to remove the stumps because they are at ground level and it is a forest. If we wanted the stumps out we wouldnt make a profit on the timber.

 

[John_Mc]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sounds to me like the people giving you bids are doing what is called "high grading". Basically they take the most lucrative trees without caring about the forest.
Ron Wenrich (a forester) has said, "Good forest management has more to do with what is left, than what is taken.")</font>

I second that. Highgrading is NOT a practice which is in your long-term best interest (in many cases, it's not even in your short-term interest). The quote based on taking "anything over 14" is usually giveaway. I would also be very wary of someone who knocks on your door and offers to harvest your timber.

When thinking of your forest think in terms decades and even centuries, not in months or years. A lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time. Your forest will probably not recover in your lifetime from a bad harvest (and probably not in your kids' lifetime either). Take the time now to develop a plan with a consulting forester. Even if it means delaying your immediate plans, you'll be glad you did it. A good forester can help you come up with a plan that addresses a whole range of issues: timber value, wildlife habitat, recreation, & etc. Goals in each of these areas are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In addition, individual trees don't necessarily increase in value in a linear fashion: the value may go for years increasing at a few percent a year, then when they reach a certain stages, the value jumps (for example when they grow from pole timber to saw timber or saw timber to veneer grade). You'd hate to cut something now that might have been about to make one of these "jumps". A good consulting forester can help guide you through this. Typically, a logger will not. Just make sure the consulting forester is working for you, buyers of forest products will often have a forester on their staff or retain one. I would recommend declining any offer from a potential buyer to "save you some money by having our forester plan the harvest for you".

Here's a place to start:

State Forester for Oklahoma:
Phone 405-521-3864
jburwell@oda.state.ok.us
(hopefully my info is still up to date)

Ask him for info on forest management practices and contacts to various groups focussing on landowner education on forestry issues. If you've got county foresters in your state, he can give you contact info for them. A county forester might be able to come out and walk your land with you, making some recommendations. A State or county forester may be reluctant to make recommendations on who you should use as a consulting forester (they want to avoid charges of favoritism, amoung other things). They can be a great source of info and point you towards other groups which can make recommendations on foresters and loggers who are good to work with, as well as provide you with tons of information on this and related topics. I know our county forester was a big help when I was getting started... but Vermont's state and country foresters do have a very good reputation on the whole. I don't know if that's true of your state as well.

Sorry for the long-winded post. You've touched on a subject that's an important one to me. I've been working like mad to educate myself on forestry and wildlife habitat ever since we bought our land. Fortunately, we're at least 10 years or so from any kind of commercial activity on our land, so I've got some time to learn and make contacts.

John Mc

 

[jazzdaddy]

You didn't mention what the cleared land would be used for. If you're going to make hay, that's a different scenario than say for a goat pasture.

I'm in a similar situation where I'm planning on clearing 20 acres for cattle pasture (not hay). I've hired a forester who will mark the valuable trees and will lay out the roads and log landing.

Because most of the trees in the clearing are smaller and not marketable, we will bring in a tree shear and cut them off close to the soil. Then all the trees and brush will be chipped in a whole tree chipping operation. There are a bunch of these outfits in this area that sell chips to the local biomass electrical generators. We will offset the cost of this by harvesting marketable trees from outside the cleared area. With the biomass chips and trees I'm hoping that the land clearing will provide a small income.

I will clear small rocks up to about 1 ton in size with a rock and root grapple. I may need to call in an excavator for large stumps and large rocks but at $500/day I want to minimize that. Most stumps will remain in the ground to conserve topsoil. Next, I will fence the perimeter with high tension woven wire, lime, fertilize and seed between the small stumps. Then let my cattle on it when the grass grows. I'll brush hog with the hog set up high to cut off sucker growth from the stumps.

I'm hoping to have a good field in a few years. This is land that was a pasture about 40 years ago.

A lot depends on what you will use your cleared land for.

 

[mike69440]

$500-600/day for a good Excavator in NH is hard too find. I was ripped off the first go around. Got someone now I can live with for excavation/ clearing work, but I will do as much as i can with a Kubota L39 with a Borgford grapple going on the machine in a few weeks. Our new property is shaping up nice

Get a forester to work for you even with only 20 Acres

You need a timber cruise. This is an inventory of ALL of the marketable trees on your land. They should break into down so that you know how many thousand board feet of each species you own. Call the NH foresty department.

Have fun! Don't forget the Timber Tax!

 

[johnnyringo]

Thanks for all your help and advice. I have called the district forester in my area that works for the State of Oklahoma and he is sending me a list of people who will handle the sale for me.

The property will be used for cow pasture once it is cleared so it doesn't have to look like a putting green. I will just have to talk to the forester and find out if anyone is willing to push the trees over before cutting them on the part I want cleared. If not it looks like I go the excavator route for stumping. I'm looking forward to seeing what he says. I will keep you posted. Thanks again.

 

[Highbeam]

The excavator will take much more time (read more money) and dig bigger holes to pull the stumps after the logs are cut than if the excavator can pop the stumps with the trees attached. The forester may not understand that since he deals with loggers all the time.

 

[dubba]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The excavator will take much more time )</font>

I find that it depends on the excavator & how crazy the operator is.

I hired an older logger with a Hitachi 200ex. His method (or insanity, your choice) was to take one scoop from behind the stump, sink the bucket in the resulting hole & lift the excavator up onto the toes of the tracks & shake until the stump & the excavator went flying. He averaged close to 3 acres per day, stumped & leveled (10hr days). The stumps were mostly 15-24" pines.