I won't ask. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hopefully it wasn't too painful, or should I say messy, of a lesson. Anyway, that close to the surface, I'd say no way. I wonder, is that the more typical installation? Not that mine, with the pipes so deep is right, but your case seems it's just a situation waiting for an accident to happen. I wonder what is really ideal or if it really matters how deep.