Gasoline polution

[Charlie_Iliff]

Re: Forgot to mention

Lose a little with each BTU, but we'll make it up in volume.

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Forgot to mention

In California they've done tests with "reformulated gasoline" as an alternative to MTBE. Works very well, and does not add any new polutants, and does not have the energy issues of ethanol. Also costs less.

The biggest issue with MTBE is that it doesn't seem to break down. Even gasoline breaks down after a few years.

 

[Chuck52]

Re: Forgot to mention

Glue guy, is the reformulated gasoline just a different cut in the cracking process? I always thought it meant different additives.

Chuck

 

[Egon]

Re: Forgot to mention

Before The days of the internal cumbustion engine were not draft animals used for agricultural purposes and did they not derive their energy from from agricultural produce that was the result of their labour?

Egon

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Re: Forgot to mention

Yes, it required the farmers to plant and maintain more ground so that they can keep their horses. So you have the farmer expending more time and energy as well as the horses so that the horse can eat. This was not in question, I was discussing the practicallity of expending more energy then you would get in return in todays economy where we are trying to cut back on energy polution.

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Re: Forgot to mention

<font color=blue>ethanol is not and will not be an answer</font color=blue>

I'm shocked /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif! Archer Daniels Midland swore to me that it would. You don't think this is just a way to bilk billions of bucks from the collective coffers fed by my tax dollars and known as the Federal Treasury, do you? This is a major corporation, they wouldn't try to pull the old flimflammery on me... /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Maybe we should check with their accounting firm. Is Anderson involved by any chance? /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Forgot to mention

<font color=blue>is the reformulated gasoline just a different cut in the cracking process? I always thought it meant different additives.</font color=blue>

Chuck,

I haven't investigated it thoroughly, but based on what I've read it is a different cracking method. The end result is that there is no need for an oxygenate (like MTBE or ethenol). Oxegenates have come under a lot of scruteny (sp?) lately as new engine technology makes their benefit quite debatable.

 

[PitbullMidwest]

Re: Forgot to mention

Charlie,
If you hadn't guessed already, ethenol is big busines here in Iowa. Many are seeking state approval to build ethenol refineries. The guideline are pretty strict and the refineries have to be able to deliver the product in the contracted quantities and on time. The approach is to cut out all middle men and go from field to refinerie.

My brother in law attended the local meeting, you can buy "shares" for $5000 each and you must deliver 2500 bushel per share on their demand schedule. Each refinerie is guarenteed a region by the State and no other refinery can operate in that region unless the refinery is unable to meet its requirements. Ethenol costs about 1/2 as much to produce (about 68 cents/gallon) as it did 4 years ago. If money is to be made by the farmer it's his feeling that it is going to be early on, once the elevators and corporate farms gain control of the refineries it will be right back to low grain prices for the farmer.

I don't believe the oil industry is sitting back waiting for ethenol to replace MTBE. They are sure to introduce some additive to combat the grain alcohol threat.

BTW, the goverment is already pushing ethenol fueled vehicals. A friend got a $600 credit on his federal taxes for buying a car (Ford Taurus FFV) capable of burning 85% ethenol. If he could find a station selling it, he'd also get a credit towards the fuel he bought.

 

[PitbullMidwest]

Re: Forgot to mention

<font color=blue>ethanol is not and will not be an answer.</font color=blue>

Disagree on this one. Farmers are over producing grain already. Drive down midwest rural highways and you will see millions of bushels of grain stored and rotting on the ground because elevators are full and there is no market for the grain. Ethonal provides that market.

As far as ethenol requiring fuel to work the fields and harvest along with more energy to turn corn to another fuel isn't this true of any ag based product? You expend energy to plant and harvest and then expend more energy to turn it into plastic bags or corn flakes? There is no possible way that more energy will be expended to make ethenol than will be returned from ethenol.

Iowa State University has made great strides recently in the development of ethenol based fuel cells and believes they have the potential of outperforming hydrogen based cells.

I'm all for altenative energy development and the introduction of new technology but I've read too many articles in too many publications about the next big innovation to believe that they will see the marketplace. Ethenol is here, today, and we could dramatically reduce our dependance on foreign oil and would not need to drill in enviromentally sensitive areas of our own country.

 

[MikePA]

Re: Forgot to mention

Like RobertNY, I've seen reports of studies that show more energy is used to make ethanol than it provides, i.e., BTUsInput > BTUsOutput whereas the opposite is true of petroleum based fuels. This is not meant a condemnation of ethanol as an alternative fuel rather it means that more efficient methods need to be developed to produce it.