Generator and electricity flow

[joshuabardwell]

I think it is possible to happen but we are still looking for the first confirmed report of a lineman being killed by a home generator. Lawyers for a utility company is interested in finding a "cause" not related to the company's policies or the failure to follow them. We know home generators can not kill linemen following policies in print and taught in lineman training classes.

Sure, and if nobody ever pointed a gun at themselves and pulled the trigger, accidental shootings wouldn't happen either. But they do, and that's why there are multiple layers of gun safety protocol: people don't always follow safety procedures 100%. It doesn't mean they deserve to die.

Here's a link to what appears to be a different incident than the previous one. The report indicates that authorities are trying to identify and arrest the homeowner. Seems like at least somebody is convinced that backfeeding was the cause.

 

[sailfast]

We all agree a transfer switch is idea but an interlock is better than nothing.

This morning the question popped in my mind is back feeding a grid by accident or intent even possible in the real world more than a micro second with the typical home back up generator used in a hacked fashion in a storm?

We have access to 7KW, 6KW, 3KW and .8 KW generator if needed during a storm. They all have rated circuit breaks that work really really fast when over loaded. Would not a grid load look so HUGE that the generator breaker system trip instantly or kill the engine. If the grid became live from the power company I could see it frying the typical back up generator but it seems to me the breakers would open fast if the generator was seen as a direct short to the grid source.

I really have not experience on this subject but know if I over load any generator that we have access to the breakers pop very fast.

I read the warnings about back feeding dangers but have not found a "confirmed" case of a lineman dying from it but I am sure someone has a confirmed case(s) they can post links concerning such cases.

It seems it is technically impossible for backing feeding to kill a lineman if the lineman is working as directed per lineman codes.

There is no defense for a home owner that would connect a home generator to the power grid period. I am just asking is there a proven case when a lineman died from back feeding where a home generator was the cause. It seems in the legal case linemen are to trip transformers feeding the homes or at least create a dead short of the grid on both sides of where they are doing line repairs.

Pike Electric, Inc., Docket No. 01-0166

Electric Company lineman dies

All of what you have written is correct.
Most of what goes on here is spreading of F(ear) U(ncertainty) and D(oubt) by the safety police.
You are more likely to be hit by lightning or win the lottery. But it is still preventable.

 

[sailfast]

Sorry, wrote short, meant open winding or loose wire inside.

8000 Watts (33 amps) of 240VAC boosted to 7200VAC would give you 1.1 amps (1100 mA). Per OSHA's formula you only need 7.2 mA at 7200VAC to cause vfib

Aaron Z

Yes...
Minus my refrigerator, TV, lights...
And lets pretend no load on my end...
Each of my neighbors porch lights and other instantly starting refrigerators, furnaces, AC etc....

Not going to happen unless I have a HUGE generator, which would be direct wired through a transfer switch anyway.

Going to blow the breaker on my "tiny" 8000W generator straight away if I were to do something that stupid.

 

[BeezFun]

...we are still looking for the first confirmed report of a lineman being killed by a home generator. Lawyers for a utility company is interested in finding a "cause" not related to the company's policies or the failure to follow them. We know home generators can not kill linemen following policies in print and taught in lineman training classes.

The OSHA investigation concluded it was a homeowner's generator. It's an interesting read, the guys were replacing a 3 phase transformer damaged as part of the hurricane. The lineman doubly locked out the potential power source upstream to ensure the line was de-energized to allow him to splice a wire, but the attitude about known home generators in the neighborhood is surprisingly casual. It states it would only have taken 5 minutes per fuse to disable the 3 sets of houses connected to the downstream side of the transformer, providing complete protection for his task. The electric company got fined for not doing more, even though they informed the workers at a morning briefing that there were home generators being used.

 

[joshuabardwell]

All of what you have written is correct.
Most of what goes on here is spreading of F(ear) U(ncertainty) and D(oubt) by the safety police.
You are more likely to be hit by lightning or win the lottery. But it is still preventable.

You say it's FUD, but OSHA and the power companies disagree. the OSHA report for the incident says that the power company warned linemen that portable generators were in use. This indicates that they consider generators a serious risk. Then a lineman was killed. These are just facts. Nothing uncertain or doubtful about them.

EDIT TO ADD: The OSHA report also quotes the CDC warning about backfeed from generators. A whole lot of organizations are on board with this FUD!

 

[Mace Canute]

What some of you fail to realize is it's the homeowners responsibility to ensure there is no backfeeding from a generator onto power lines. Period. It's obvious the ones here that make the most noise about it being all the Linemans' fault if something happens from a backfeed situation are also the ones that don't wish to spend a few bucks to actually meet their responsibilities. Equally obvious is the fact that these same people have no idea of what situations exist when the power is off and what remedial actions are required.

 

[grsthegreat]

itsd amazing how ALL of these generator posts always end up the same way. fight fight fight.

even those with NO knowledge of how electricity works offer up their "ive done it this way for years....bla bla bla"

it is sad and funny at the same time.

That being said, i just installed a brand new Siemens 20KW generator with automatic transfer switch on a jobsite yesterday..... installed easily and worked 100% first time.

 

[sailfast]

OSHA is about ZERO risk.
If I followed OSHA regulations I wouldn't be allowed to change a light bulb!

I'm not going to wast time trying to convince someone who disagrees with me but it is very simple.

Lets pretend that some how I forgot to turn off the main breaker... Or some person breaks into my home and turns it on for me.

My portable genset that can't run my own well pump, fridge, and AC or water heater at the same time will definitely throw it's breaker when my neighbors fridges, AC, water heaters and well pumps all try to start at the same time.... And it doesn't need to be 4 or 5 neighbors... Just one will do.

 

[devildog1]

We have the generlink referenced above, it was installed by our local electrical co-op. They unplugged the meter installed the generlink and replaced the meter. No wiring or breakers were changed. Your panel also has a rating for the number of circuits which may be exceeded if double circuits up, just another spec. to be aware of.

GenerLink.com - About GenerLink - The easy way to connect a home generator

Through the Co-op they installed it for about the same as the online pricing I found.

In New York, The National Grid does not approve the Generlink , so far only a Transfer Switch, I know because I called and talked to their engineers.
DevilDog

 

[Mace Canute]

OSHA is about ZERO risk.
If I followed OSHA regulations I wouldn't be allowed to change a light bulb!

I'm not going to wast time trying to convince someone who disagrees with me but it is very simple.

Lets pretend that some how I forgot to turn off the main breaker... Or some person breaks into my home and turns it on for me.

My portable genset that can't run my own well pump, fridge, and AC or water heater at the same time will definitely throw it's breaker when my neighbors fridges, AC, water heaters and well pumps all try to start at the same time.... And it doesn't need to be 4 or 5 neighbors... Just one will do.

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

 

[aczlan]

In New York, The National Grid does not approve the Generlink , so far only a Transfer Switch, I know because I called and talked to their engineers.
DevilDog

I spoke with either NYSEG or RG&E (cant remember which) about installing an interlock such as PowerMark Gold Generator Interlock Kit-THQLLX4 at The Home Depot in a meter base/panel such as Power Mark Gold 200 Amp Main Breaker 4-Space 8-Circuit Meter Socket Load Center-TSM420CSCU at The Home Depot and they said that they were ok with as long as the inspector would pass it. I spoke to our local inspector and he was also ok with it as long as it was UL listed.

Aaron Z

 

[devildog1]

I spoke with either NYSEG or RG&E (cant remember which) about installing an interlock such as PowerMark Gold Generator Interlock Kit-THQLLX4 at The Home Depot in a meter base/panel such as Power Mark Gold 200 Amp Main Breaker 4-Space 8-Circuit Meter Socket Load Center-TSM420CSCU at The Home Depot and they said that they were ok with as long as the inspector would pass it. I spoke to our local inspector and he was also ok with it as long as it was UL listed.

Aaron Z

I hear what your saying Aaron but I was just talking about the easy to install and use GenerLink. Transfer switched are approved if wired and inspected but the GenerLink is to state of the art of the best.http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

DevilDog

 

[GPintheMitten]

Here's my interlocking for the generator and the outside plug for it.

I made a "dog house" type of little shed for the genny so I can keep it outside near the plug. I made it so the roof and sides detach easily so it won't overheating. I showed my wife how to hook everything up.

The generator and its dog house are setting on a 3pt platform so I can move it easily with the tractor.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Ps. I found the interlock by googling but when I went to buy it from a local supply house, it was about $15 cheaper to buy a new panel cover with the interlock already installed.

Cost was about $115 for the cover with interlock and about $50 or $60 for the plug.

I had to move existing circuits down to make room for the generator breaker because it needed to be the first 2 spaces on the right side.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Here's some pics of the generator dog house. Two walls are hinged and are used as ramps to roll the genny up and down, the other two walls lift off completely.

The roof lifts off as well. The two cross braces are half lapped and are removable. I drilled 4 holes for removable nails to pin the roof to the walls in each corner so it can't blow off. Little hasps hold the 4 walls in place.

 

[sailfast]

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

I'm not going to let you draw me into a personal insult contest.

If something I posted is incorrect that is one thing but insulting people you disagree with is a waste of time.

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Only a person without concern for his generator or just not informed would ever permit his generator to connected to the power grid where it is dead or alive period. The chances of killing a lineman are very slim to none but the changes of back feeding the generator when the grid goes live is very real.

If one will only be concerned about his generator insures the linemen are not at risk from his generator. It really is that simple.

With that being said back feeding not done to code opens the door to human error and death as does driving 600 miles in one day.

 

[sdkubota]

I have an interlock on the main panel. It is impossible to feed the panel from my 15kw generator without the Main breaker being turned off. All the other non-essential circuits also need to be switched off as 15kw can not run everything.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I have an interlock on the main panel. It is impossible to feed the panel from my 15kw generator without the Main breaker being turned off. All the other non-essential circuits also need to be switched off as 15kw can not run everything.

Yup, that's the way I have mine hooked up. I have to switch off non-essential circuits too. My generator is smaller than yours, but it will run the sump pumps, furnace, well pump, fridge, computer, TV,and a few lights.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Fact is there isn't a lineman worth his pay that doesn't treat every line like it is live at all times. Ones that don't end up dead and it isn't because of home generators. The entire backfeed story is nothing more then a folktale that won't die. Yes, people shouldn't be screwing with power because it is dangerous. I challenge anyone tyo publish a single electrocution event of a linesman attributed to a home generator.
(ducks and runs for cover)

Are you a lineman? just wondering what your credentials are or level of expertise about what electrical lineman do or do not do.