Generator and electricity flow

[jejeosborne]

jejeosborne. Good information. took the information from Measurments and Electriacl Engineering book part 2 written by Roland Marshall Prof of engineering Purdue University. Ind. Uhmm in 1943

A side note also Retired from Ark power and Light 18 years ago Company now Entergy of Ark. Breaking away from Entergy group System due to we had the transmission lines 500 K.V. and 2 900 Mw units Nuke plant and 2 900 Meg. Watt coal fired plants and having to give the profits to Miss or La. to pay there continous bills. by Federlly mandated equalization payments. (Never let the camel stick its nose in the tent because soon the whole animal is in inside telling you how to generate power.)Also merging the trasmission lines with ITC Holdings to be completed in 2013. Talk about a fresh breeze blowing 30 years of legal wrangling
over who owns power plants we built.
Your giving good electrical information I was trying to get those who think any method to lite a bulb is o'k . To rethink the methods.
ken

I wasn't around when that book was written, lol. Things in this industry change so often. I have been in the wholesale energy business for 18 years and the last 15 years have changed more than the previous 100 years. Mostly due to individual control areas joining and making large power pools and the FERC order 888 back in the 90's that allowed open access to the transmission system. That FERC order started all the power marketing craze and the fun Enron days. I still have some Enron items laying around to remind me of the good ole days.

 

[Ken]

I wasn't around when that book was written, lol. Things in this industry change so often. I have been in the wholesale energy business for 18 years and the last 15 years have changed more than the previous 100 years. Mostly due to individual control areas joining and making large power pools and the FERC order 888 back in the 90's that allowed open access to the transmission system. That FERC order started all the power marketing craze and the fun Enron days. I still have some Enron items laying around to remind me of the good ole days.

Enron was a good company just the upper floor high energy accountants and stock dealers Had to be on those left handed cigerattes.

Unbelieveable number of employees lost it all.
My first telemeter pressure measurment was a record player that had frequency tones that increased with pressure. The player arm would ride over the spinning player until the phone rang then set down on record. The dispatcher used a tuning fork to "0" beat the tone for accurite the pressure reading.
When retired every 2 sec. updated all readings from 470+ substations power plants .scada.
Now all the dispatchers I worked with only meet at yearly christmas get to gather. They will not even allow any former employee in the building.
Yes times have changed.

 

[jejeosborne]

Enron was a good company just the upper floor high energy accountants and stock dealers Had to be on those left handed cigerattes.

Unbelieveable number of employees lost it all.
My first telemeter pressure measurment was a record player that had frequency tones that increased with pressure. The player arm would ride over the spinning player until the phone rang then set down on record. The dispatcher used a tuning fork to "0" beat the tone for accurite the pressure reading.
When retired every 2 sec. updated all readings from 470+ substations power plants .scada.
Now all the dispatchers I worked with only meet at yearly christmas get to gather. They will not even allow any former employee in the building.
Yes times have changed.

I agree with the Enron comment to an extent. I spent a few days in Houston on their dime and they spent a lot of dimes.

Our scada system is amazing. I am sitting in a secure control room right by myself doing a job that once would have taken 100 people. I am getting a suntan from the 15 computer monitors, many of them are 42" displays. It is funny to see some of the old log books from just 30 years ago and what they considered acceptable limits back then. We are able to hold voltage and frequency to a lot closer limit with the help of the computer and automation.

 

[CNC Dan]

just curious... the original poster said that installing a transfer switch required open slots for breakers...

I thought the OP was refering to putting a interlock in his breaker panel. In that case he would need two open slots in the panel at the top. But the panel was full, so it was sugested that four of the single circuit breakers could be replaced with two double circiut breakers, thus leaving two open slots.

Thats how i remember it anyway.
If only we could go back and look.

 

[CNC Dan]

When the time error reaches 10 seconds fast or slow, ALL generators in our interconnect, will adjust the generator governors to either 59.98 if fast or 60.02 if slow to get the time back and close to equal of the atomic clock in Boulder Colorado

10 seconds! Is that right? On a 60 cycle system that's 600 cycles.

 

[jejeosborne]

10 seconds! Is that right? On a 60 cycle system that's 600 cycles.

Yes, ten seconds is correct. People don't realize that some days they go to work 10 seconds early or late. MISO now handles our time error corrections because we now follow their dispatch schedule. Just a few years ago one of us operators would receive the phone call from the neighboring utility and enter the new frequency schedule into our scada system. They had a daisy chain of phone calls to contact all the control areas of the interconnect to start and stop at the same time.

Load and generation differences are what causes the time error. In the morning hours or on high demand days, frequency is typically lagging due to generators not picking up quickly enough. Then the opposite happens after Jay Leno's monologue is over and people go to bed.

Every MW on the system has to be accounted for thru metering with neighboring utilities. If I sell 50 MW's for the next hour, I have to pick up 50 more MW of generation than my current load and the buyer does the opposite on their scada system. The grid is like a lake. People put water in and others pull it out. My generation doesn't necessary serve my customers.

 

[CNC Dan]

so when you say "10 seconds" you mean all the gereration and all the load together. I thought that you meant that your station had gone out of sync with the rest of the grid about 600 cycles worth !

 

[jejeosborne]

so when you say "10 seconds" you mean all the gereration and all the load together. I thought that you meant that your station had gone out of sync with the rest of the grid about 600 cycles worth !

No I am talking grid (system) time compared to the actual time as measure by the atomic clock in Boulder. A generator cannot be off by more than a half cycle or 180 degrees standing alone before syncing. The only time error that matters is to the customer so that their clocks that are plugged into the grid stay accurate. Nobody wants to tell everyone in the country to reset their clocks. With all these auto setting clocks available, maybe some day time corrections will be a thing of the past.

 

[SlowPocono]

Here's my follow up concerning the information I requested.

I took the advice of daybreak1998 and CurleyDave and and want to express my thanks for their help as well as the constructive comments by everyone else.

The installation of the new breakers, the interlock and the inlet box went smoothly for a total outlay of about $214.00.
The house hasn't burned down or caught on fire even once and I didn't electrocute myself either.

The generator plugs in and provides power to any of the circuits that the breakers are turned on for. It all works just right. Thanks very much, again.

It has been discovered that many of the circuit breakers are mislabeled and I'm going to have to do a lot of running around the house turning breakers on and off, flipping light switches and testing outlets to assure that I really know what breakers are for what. It seems simple on the surface of it but that's going to take a lot of time and it's probably going to be easy to miss something. Is there some shortcut that I'm not smart enough to see on my own?

The biggest load for the generator and the main reason I needed it is the well pump. I wanted to make sure that the generator would be big enough so I did some more reading on this forum and decided to buy a cheap clamp meter. I tested the current draw multiple times and learned that the running the pump draws about 6 or 7 amps and that when I watch the meter closely during start up there's a momentary surge of about 16 amps. When the peak hold function of the meter is used it records a 30 amp draw but I'm convinced that is of very short duration. In any case the generator I got starts and runs that pump quickly and without any apparent strain. I'm happy about that.

Here are a couple of pictures of how it turned out. Thanks again!

 

[sdkubota]

The electric runs will be grouped together like upstair, downstairs, living room, bathroom, etc. Most runs will power at least a room and often a larger area. Shouldn't be hard to track everything down. You can then buy some small colred stickers and label the breakers according if you want on when feeding from generator, want off, or occasionally want on. Kitchens normally can have a number of breakers including 220v feed.

 

[CNC Dan]

It has been discovered that many of the circuit breakers are mislabeled and I'm going to have to do a lot of running around the house turning breakers on and off, flipping light switches and testing outlets to assure that I really know what breakers are for what. It seems simple on the surface of it but that's going to take a lot of time and it's probably going to be easy to miss something. Is there some shortcut that I'm not smart enough to see on my own?

Get your self several long extention cords long enough to reach the breaker panel. Plug in to an outlet in the house an use it to power a lamp or something. Flip breakers 'till lamp goes out, and that's the breaker for that outlet. If you can't get enough extention cords, use a radio set loud enough to hear from the panel. Use two set to diferent stations.

For celing lights, you can get a screw in adaptor at most hardware stores that will allow you to plug in a two prong plug.

 

[CNC Dan]

...and when you are done, label the outlet covers with the breaker number. On the back of the cover if the Mrs. wont stand for labels visable.

 

[Dave M7040]

Digital Circuit Breaker Finder-ET300 at The Home Depot

I dont know how to paste a link properly but Home Depot sells a Klein circuit breaker finder for approx. $40. You plug the transmitter into a receptacle and scan the breaker panel with a receiver until you find the breaker you are looking for. It makes the job you are wanting to do very easy and you will soon have friends wanting to trace circuits in their homes.
Dave M7040

 

[daybreak1998]

Howdy SlowPocono,

I am glad you got it all together. As you see, anyone can hook your generator up safely even if you not there. Or disconnect it and flip the main back on.

I use little orange and blue little dot stickers. I usually leave all 15amp breakers on (usually all lights), I just switch between running pump, then running hot water heater, then pump to shower. I do not turn off the electric stove breaker... no sense, I am on generator, and I can not run everything. You would be suprised at how many things can run in the house. You just need to watch when you run the big draw things (well pump, hot water heater)

2 people tracking down circuit breakers is always easier too.

good luck
Mike

 

[brokenot]

It has been discovered that many of the circuit breakers are mislabeled

That's always been a puzzler for me. With all of the other rules and regulations associated with a panel, why is circuit labeling sort of *allowed* to be all over the place? Of course changes and upgrades made somewhere along the way could render what the original installer did, (and what the inspector signed off on), as being perhaps less relevant, but still....

Our house was built in the late 70's. The breakers were labeled with a dull pencil....using made-up abbreviations....in handwriting that rivals the "prescription script" of an elderly doctor.

 

[jejeosborne]

That's always been a puzzler for me. With all of the other rules and regulations associated with a panel, why is circuit labeling sort of *allowed* to be all over the place? Of course changes and upgrades made somewhere along the way could render what the original installer did, (and what the inspector signed off on), as being perhaps less relevant, but still....

Our house was built in the late 70's. The breakers were labeled with a dull pencil....using made-up abbreviations....in handwriting that rivals the "prescription script" of an elderly doctor.

First we need to find inspectors that inspect the major items. Unfortunately many times the green tag is in their hand before they get out of their vehicle. But this a whole nother thread.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Here's my follow up concerning the information I requested.

I took the advice of daybreak1998 and CurleyDave and and want to express my thanks for their help as well as the constructive comments by everyone else.

The installation of the new breakers, the interlock and the inlet box went smoothly for a total outlay of about $214.00.
The house hasn't burned down or caught on fire even once and I didn't electrocute myself either.

The generator plugs in and provides power to any of the circuits that the breakers are turned on for. It all works just right. Thanks very much, again.

It has been discovered that many of the circuit breakers are mislabeled and I'm going to have to do a lot of running around the house turning breakers on and off, flipping light switches and testing outlets to assure that I really know what breakers are for what. It seems simple on the surface of it but that's going to take a lot of time and it's probably going to be easy to miss something. Is there some shortcut that I'm not smart enough to see on my own?

The biggest load for the generator and the main reason I needed it is the well pump. I wanted to make sure that the generator would be big enough so I did some more reading on this forum and decided to buy a cheap clamp meter. I tested the current draw multiple times and learned that the running the pump draws about 6 or 7 amps and that when I watch the meter closely during start up there's a momentary surge of about 16 amps. When the peak hold function of the meter is used it records a 30 amp draw but I'm convinced that is of very short duration. In any case the generator I got starts and runs that pump quickly and without any apparent strain. I'm happy about that.

Here are a couple of pictures of how it turned out. Thanks again!

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=298392"/><img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=298393"/>

Your setup is just about what I have. I went back and painted all the breakers I want to turn off with red paint so its easy to figure out at 3am when the power is out.

The only big draw breaker I leave on other than the 30 amp well pump is the 50 amp stove. I have used just one or two burners with no issues.

We have propane hot water and heat so that is not a issue.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Not sure why all the pics are rotated?

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Lets try again.

Chris

 

[davedj1]

So just to be clear, NEC is ok with the interlock breaker system?