Generator hookups in ONTARIO

[gogojuice]

I finally purchased my PTO generator and am stuck trying to figure out how to hook it up.

After googling.. I'm not sure what is legal or best in ONTARIO.

I see a lot of posts on methods.. but I may just end up calling the local utility to see what is good to go.

Does anyone recommend a certain method?

 

[orangeandgreen]

Sounds like you have decided on the correct choice. Your local utility is where you need to start.
Our local utility had a data sheet for generator hook-up that was free.

 

[buickanddeere]

Central metered with triplex or underground out to each building ? Generator size and loads operated while on generator power?
Ronk makes a replacement meter base that has a built in break before make transfer switch . Reliance also makes a good product to place downstream of the utility meter - Reliance Controls Corporation

 

[BLSXJ]

I would go the replacement meter base route.
Basicly "they" pull your hydro meter, install a qizmo in its place, then re-install your meter.

When the power goes out, you fire up your tractor, connect the generator, drive up to your hydro meter, connect a heavy power cable from generator to the "gizmo" they installed. and that's it your off and running. no re-wiring in the house required.

I would call around to your local Electricians. at the end of the day, They and "Hydro one" (or other hydro company) need to work together to make it happen.

Cheers

 

[gogojuice]

BLSXJ.

IF the "gizmo" you are referring to is called a generlink is can only do 10KW. I called the company.
Is this the device?
GenerLink.com - About GenerLink - The easy way to connect a home generator

If not, can you tell me what you were thinking about?

Thanks

 

[BleedingOrange]

What capacity does your PTO Generator have ? Is it more than 10K ?

 

[gogojuice]

Yes.. Its 16 KW. My little BX can't make that.. but if I'm going to do it.. I'm not going to limit the amount I can use

 

[wrooster]

see
Sandy -- 12 days without power: what worked, what didn't ... - AR15.COM

and the "interconnection" section of my in-process writeup:
reference:generator_oracle [losdos]

wrooster

 

[BLSXJ]

Yeap that is what I was thinking.

I understand your 10KW hook up vs 16 Kw generator dilemma. But dare I ask what you plan on running during a power outage that needs that much juice?

during a extended outage my concerns are, Fridge, freezer, Water pump, and furnace fan. and that puts me in the 6.5Kw range.

 

[wrooster]

during a extended outage my concerns are, Fridge, freezer, Water pump, and furnace fan. and that puts me in the 6.5Kw range.

Two comments:

1) Sometimes less is more:
As long as the outside temperature is reasonable, you need about 2KW to "run" a house on a temporary, emergency basis. Choosing an inverter-type single voltage (120Vac) generator with modest power output (~1.5KW to 3KW) has a very beneficial effect on fuel consumption if you are operating from fixed fuel stores (for example, gasoline, diesel, or propane). The net effect of using a small generator during a power outage is that less stored fuel carries you longer. For this reason, beware of getting a larger generator "just in case you want to power more stuff"; the downside is that you will need to store more fuel, and replenishing fuel stocks during a power outage can range from problematic to impossible. With community-supplied natural gas as a fuel, this is not a problem.

2) Peak loads can exceed average loads by a factor of 5-10X:
The problem with sizing a generator to run every load -- including "big loads" -- is that the eventual solution is very inefficient when supplying typical normal loads. For example, a 240Vac deep well pump can draw 50A on startup and 15A when operating. On this basis you will need a fairly large split-phase (120/240Vac) generator capable of providing at least 3.6KW continuous and up to 12KW peak. Specifying such a big generator means that during typical, light load operating conditions (e.g., less than 2KW) you are using a lot of power just to keep a lot of rotating mass in motion. And that means high fuel consumption. Again, if you are using stored fuel, that can be a problem during an extended outage. Sure, it's nice that you can use the well pump or the A/C any time you want, but in the end, fuel supply will be the problem.


Just as an example, a typical(*) 5.5KW gasoline generator uses about a half gallon of fuel per hour at half load (2.75KW output). That's about 12 gallons of gasoline per 24 hours at half load. If you were to only run the generator 12 hours per day, you need 6 gallons per day, every day, for the duration of the outage. How much gasoline do you want to store?

wrooster

(*) e.g.,
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200370713_200370713

 

[Industrial Toys]

It always stikes me as a real shame that people seem to need so much power, just because they can't or don't wish to manage loads. Most people don't have a clue how little juice a freezer, fridge and furnace blower use. The starting current for a pump is about the worst thing to consider.

 

[wrooster]

It always stikes me as a real shame that people seem to need so much power, just because they can't or don't wish to manage loads. Most people don't have a clue how little juice a freezer, fridge and furnace blower use. The starting current for a pump is about the worst thing to consider.

That is exactly how I ended up with the two-pronged approach I have:
Sandy -- 12 days without power: what worked, what didn't ... - AR15.COM

 

[Fallon]

I had the guys install a generator disconnect when I got my 9.8kw grid tied solar power system. Transfer switch is rated at 400@ because I have 250@ service & they only make 200 & 400@ switches. It's way more power than I need, as is the 25kw (25kw surge) PTO generator. But given the transfer switch requirements is completely future proof. I can fire up the tractor & PTO generator for the well, hot water, stove & probably weld up in my shop at the same time. However I'll likely just end up using the junker 5kw camping generator most of the time. The killer for me will be the motor start requirements for the well. Not sure if that noisy garage sale Coleman generator will run the well.

 

[JPRambo]

I use a 3500/5500 watt generator when at my GA property for the well its a 3/4 horse 240 volt pump.

 

[TerryR]

Specifying such a big generator means that during typical, light load operating conditions (e.g., less than 2KW) you are using a lot of power just to keep a lot of rotating mass in motion.
[/url]

Really? As Newton explained, "a body in motion tends to stay in motion." How does keeping a rotating mass in motion use power?

There may be issues with too large a generator, but this isn't one of them.

 

[buickanddeere]

Always amazes me how some people are so proud of their modesty . How they can "get by" and "make do" . All too often it's cheaper and works better in the long run to do a project right instead of cutting corners .
It's not good for the generator, motor and anything else on the system during low voltage, low frequency and dirty power while the generator is lugged down.
Not a good idea either to operate a consumer grade generator continuously at it's full rated current .

 

[wrooster]

Really? As Newton explained, "a body in motion tends to stay in motion." How does keeping a rotating mass in motion use power? There may be issues with too large a generator, but this isn't one of them.

It's not that simple.

Attach an electric motor to the crankshaft of an engine of your choosing (could be fueled by gas, diesel, propane, whatever). Turn on the electric motor and drive the engine to it's rated output RPM (2800, 3000, 3600, etc). Measure the power consumed by the electric motor -- this will give you a good idea of the mechanical and frictional losses ("overhead") associated with running the engine. Just actuating the valve springs on an internal combustion engine many times per second saps a lot of power. Spinning the water pump in order to exchange engine heat with the radiator takes power. These sorts of losses consume fuel, regardless of the power output of the engine itself. And that is just the engine. Large alternators (2-20KW) are typically equipped with a coaxial cooling fan -- and it takes power for a fan to move air. Finally, the mechanical to electrical conversion process of the alternator itself is not "free" -- it is only 80-85% efficient. The remaining 15-20% is lost as heat, hence the need for a coaxial cooling fan to keep the stator and rotor from exceeding the winding insulation rating.

Another way to look at it:
An example engine-alternator generator set can produce a maximum of 10KW.
At an output of 5KW, does the generator have half the fuel consumption rate as when the output is 10KW?
No. it has a lot more than half the fuel consumption rate at half output.
Even with *no* power output there is considerable fuel use because of the losses noted above.

It doesn't help that in a direct-coupled generator the engine MUST run at constant speed. Modern alternator heads come in two flavors: 2 pole and 4 pole; in order to output 60Hz power, the former requires 3600RPM input and the latter requires 1800RPM input. The problem with these two speeds is that 1) 3600RPM matches small gas engines nicely but doesn't match larger diesel engines nicely, and 2) 1800RPM doesn't match small gas engines at all and doesn't match larger diesel engines well.

The net result of these poor matches is the need to introduce a gearset transmission to adapt RPM's. For example, the engine on my little BX runs at 3200RPM high idle, which corresponds to 540RPM at the PTO shaft. An up-conversion is needed at the attached PTO generator to spin the alternator head at either 1800 or 3600RPM. This up-conversion comes at a cost -- even helical-cut gears bathed in oil cost you 2-3% power transmission loss. I have not left out the tractor HST "loss" here; converting stored chemical energy in fuel into heat energy resulting in mechanical power onward to hydraulic power and then to mechanical power and finally to electrical power is not a free process, and this is the answer to your question, "How does keeping a rotating mass in motion use power?"

wrooster

 

[daybreak1998]

Howdy,
There are lots of ways to make the connection. The Generlink is just one of others which mount a collar behind the meter. There larger ones also. Some methods are in this thread here.
Generator Transfer switch connection choices

 

[Industrial Toys]

Actually, I learned that one can't spin a 15 KW PTO genset unloaded with a JD 770. Mind you, I tried using a 1:2 gearbox so I could run light loads at night at half throttle. But it surprised and disappointed me all the same. It was a high speed Onan set that had a chain driven gearbox to increase rotor speed, which I am sure didn't help.

 

[HarryVanderpool]

It always stikes me as a real shame that people seem to need so much power, just because they can't or don't wish to manage loads. Most people don't have a clue how little juice a freezer, fridge and furnace blower use. The starting current for a pump is about the worst thing to consider.

We have lived on our 15 acres for 26 years.
In that time we have had several extended outages. some 3 and 4 days in the worst weather.
The key to efficient generator usage is the development of a plan.
We run our generator (5KW) for 3 hours in the morning and 3 or 4 hours at night.
That keeps the freezer froze, allows us to do all of the things to get by and uses about 4 - 5 gallons of gas per day.
Our well pump is 2hp. No problem whatsoever.
We set 2, 5 gallon buckets of water by the toilets for flushing.
This allows us to have water from the pressure tank between runs.

I am happy for anyone to do what ever they want, whatever makes them happy.
But in our case, the idea of a great big generator running all day and all night sucking down fuel makes no sense whatsoever.
We run the generator no more than we absolutely must.
Also, we heat with wood in the winter so that helps.
We also have a 1K generator if we need to do something small between runs.

We just bought a 7000 Champion to serve as a backup to our 22 year old Generac 5K.
One thing that is rarely mentioned in these types of threads is:
If you decide to buy a certain size generator, how much fuel do you need to have on hand for the worst case disaster?
Do you have enough fuel to run your 50KW generator, 24 hours a day for a month?