GeoThermal Systems - Worth the $$?

[heehaw]

please correct me if i have the wrong idea: it "appears" to me: that the only thing the water does in a geothermal system, is replace the radiator looking part that usually sits outside, and has a fan that blows air over the coils to cool the freon: other than that the rest of the system looks like a standard heat pump system?? there are probably several ways to cool the freon, the freon lines may go inside a tank that has the water circulating thru: or the freon and water lines may be against each other, so the water cools the freon that way? either way, i can't figure out why they are so expensive? other than the cost of putting loops in the ground.
heehaw

 

[BobRip]

please correct me if i have the wrong idea: it "appears" to me: that the only thing the water does in a geothermal system, is replace the radiator looking part that usually sits outside, and has a fan that blows air over the coils to cool the freon: other than that the rest of the system looks like a standard heat pump system?? there are probably several ways to cool the freon, the freon lines may go inside a tank that has the water circulating thru: or the freon and water lines may be against each other, so the water cools the freon that way? either way, i can't figure out why they are so expensive? other than the cost of putting loops in the ground.
heehaw

Like you said it's the cost of digging and putting the loop in the ground. I have an insulated concrete form house. R50 in the walls, R55 in the attic. A 4 zone heat pump. My average heating and cooling cost is $30/month with a base bill of about $100. This is a 3500 square foot house. If I cut the heating cost in half it would only save me $180 per year. Makes it hard to justify a geothermal system. My builder told me if you can did the trenches yourself then it is cost justified, otherwise get a high efficiency heat pump with backup gas depending on your climate. I have electric backup.

 

[techman]

please correct me if i have the wrong idea: it "appears" to me: that the only thing the water does in a geothermal system, is replace the radiator looking part that usually sits outside, and has a fan that blows air over the coils to cool the freon
heehaw

The simple answer is yes. There is a heat exchanger that transfers the heat from water to freon, or the other way around, depending on the season.

The actual unit is not that much more than a high quality standard heat pump. There are some differences like the overall construction to keep the unit quiet, since it is indoors, and a more advanced computer control, but it is basically the same, and close to the same price. Now add a circulator panel with pump and valving, several thousand feet of tubing, a hundred gallons or so of antifreeze and a few other odds and ends, and it starts to add up.

As mentioned before, the big cost is the installation of the tubing at 5 to 6 feet down over a sufficiently large area and you start to add up the bucks.
Overall there is a lot of labor involved which jacks up the cost. Also due to the much smaller market, there is a premium to be paid, especially for a certified installer.

You can read about my experience with geo at:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/74680-geothermal-heat-pump-project.html?

paul

 

[gemini5362]

The actual unit is not that much more than a high quality standard heat pump. There are some differences like the overall construction to keep the unit quiet, since it is indoors, and a more advanced computer control, but it is basically the same, and close to the same price. Now add a circulator panel with pump and valving, several thousand feet of tubing, a hundred gallons or so of antifreeze and a few other odds and ends, and it starts to add up.


paul

I am going to have to disagree with this statement. It might be about the same price where you live but I can guarantee that it is not the same price where i live. The actual real cost of a 4 ton heat pum is about 2600 dollars here. the cost of a 4 ton geo- thermal heat pump is about 11,000 dollars here. These prices were made last month when I was priceing a geo thermal unit for my house. That does not include any of the cost of pipeing or installation that is simply the cost of the unit. I tried to find out why the huge difference and no one could tell me. They should run about the same price there is not that much more goes into either one. But the actual price of the geo unit is about 4 times that of a traditional air to air heat pump. I could get the geo-thermal unit installed for 15,000.00 with me digging all the ditches. Getting the air to air was about 4000.00 installed. At my age i cannot pay back the 4 times the price by the savings on electricity. For geo- thermal to get any kind of general acceptance it is going to have to get the cost of the unit similar to the cost of an air- air heat pump

 

[techman]

I am going to have to disagree with this statement. It might be about the same price where you live but I can guarantee that it is not the same price where i live. The actual real cost of a 4 ton heat pum is about 2600 dollars here. the cost of a 4 ton geo- thermal heat pump is about 11,000 dollars here.

gemini5362:

I do not want to discuss prices in detail, since I am involved in the trade, but I can tell you that the COST of a 4 ton geo unit is not much more than the price you mentioned for an air unit. In this area, $ 10K will buy you the complete system, including ground loop, installed.

Sounds like the dealer you got the price from was either trying to scare you off or just a rip off. As I stated, there is much more labor,etc to install a geo unit, but the equipment costs are very similar.

I think shopping around more may help you locate an honest dealer who will give you a fair price.

paul

 

[gemini5362]

Paul I wished I lived closer to where you do so that I could get those kind of prices. I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt how accurate the prices are around here. I went to several dealers getting quotes. The unit I had installed is an air to air. I wanted the geothermal because I think that it is a much more efficient way to go. I had a friend from high school that installed the air unit he gave me his invoice from the large hvac company he works for and told me to pay him that much. I had him price the geothermal and his price was about 4 times more. As was the price for another friend that I worked with for several years at a steel mill I worked at for a while. As well as the regular dealer I talked to about installing one. As well as the 4 or 5 dealers I have talked to at home and garden shows both here and in tulsa, oklahoma. I am not doubting what you can get them for. I am just saying in this area none of the dealers I have talked to can get the unit for under 10,000 dollars

 

[techman]

I am just saying in this area none of the dealers I have talked to can get the unit for under 10,000 dollars

Sorry to hear that. How long ago was that ?

Equipment prices from the master distributors are basically the same nationwide, give or take 5%. Given the prices you got, I should to move to your area. A couple of jobs and I could retire !

paul

 

[heehaw]

i go to a web site, acdirect.com and get prices on systems: a 4 ton 15 seer heat pump cost $3320 thru them: thats with electric resistance back up. a goodman brand, and i have used 2 gas units made by goodman with very good results. acdirect doesn't have geothermal so i don't have a way to compare the two systems: but the best price i have heard of anyone around here having a geothermal system put in for is about $15K. 2 years ago, a local dealer charged a friend of mine $5,000 to replace his York package unit with a Trane package unit, gas heat, not a heat pump: for no more work involved in the swap, i couldn't believe the price.
heehaw

 

[KYErik]

I put a 3 ton closed loop Water Furnace unit in my new 1500 square foot 1.5 story (R19 fiberglass in the walls R30 fiberglass in the ceiling- R19 in the knee walls) 5 years ago (my dad and I built the house ourselves).

The unit was $8 K installed (I subcontracted the backhoe work and saved a bundle that way). The water furnace contractor installed the 1500 ft of black poly field lines (they had to be 4 ft deep here in western KY- the ends are all heat sealed together) and also designed the ductwork and gave me the plans and I built and installed all the ducts (not part of the 8K price). It has a 5 year parts and labor warranty and a 10 year parts warranty. I never have needed to have anyone out to work on it, but on a hot and humid summer day when my wife is cooking, it seems to barely be able to keep up with the cooling (even when the upstairs ducts are closed off).

This unit sits under my living room floor in the crawl space. You notice it humming when it kicks on, but its not as distracting as I thought it would be and I don't have any regrets about placing it there.

My bills are about $100 per month in the summer and winter and $50 per month in the spring and fall (when it isn't running much). But I do not heat or cool the upstairs (2 unused bedrooms and a bathroom up there).

It will probably take a total of 10-15 years to pay for itsself, but it does give some extra resale value to the house. I could have bought a 1.5 ton, 2 ton split heat pump system for $4K installed.

Personally, I don't have any regrets, but when I build another house I will probably just put a regular heat pump in since the efficiencies of the regular heat pumps are getting higher every year and I can save money by installing it myself.

My biggest regret is not putting cellulose insulation in the ceiling...

 

[thcri]

i can't figure out why they are so expensive? other than the cost of putting loops in the ground.
heehaw

Yes the cost of the loop. Horizontal in our area runs about $1,500 per ton. Average house takes 5 to 6 tons. So you have $7500 there alone. The cost of the equipment runs about 20% more than a gas furnace and air conditioner combined.

murph