Global Warming News

[keegs]

Well, a few days back someone suggested shutting off their power It does have a certain appeal to it.

It's an issue and one that has gotten worse as more people want to live in more rural areas, it's not just an issue in population centers. Just try to find a power corridor or hilltop that won't impact somebody.

For the last 5-10 years, the most effective way to keep things away from your property is to play the 'environmental impact card'. Of course, then when people read about it the newspapers, they can blame it all on the tree huggers.

Dave.

Who was it Dave....Churchhill I think that said, you can alway rely on the Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else.

I guess we're in the "try everything else" phase...

 

[piller]

EEPete: I read your post about installing a 7.7 kW solar system at your house and reaching break even on the project, including the cost of money, in less than 10 years.

I wish that this was true. My electricity costs me 8 cents per kW-hr. I would love to get off the grid, but for me the numbers don't make sense. Would you care to share your analysis?

 

[Pilot]

Loren49,

You asked, "Pilot-What would it cost to interconnect 2461 of your 6.5kw units (16MW) to state specs and operate them 12 hrs a day for 25 years minimum plus the upkeep."

A valid comparison is not as easy as it might seem. First, your solar panels don't produce full power all day, just mid day, but the generators deliver uniform output. Then there are clouds and that darn global cooling that happens in the winter, especially when snow covers the panels. Then there is the cost of the money, the present value of all the costs and including the investment. On the other hand, we don't know what the cost of fuel and oil will be and if I were to try to optimize the fuel situation I might find that diesel would be a better choice, or perhaps natural gas.

Solar, in spite of it's drawbacks, makes a lot of sense in the long run, but the experts say it won't be economically efficient for some time yet. And when efficiencies are borderline, solar should start where the sun shines a lot, like near Death Valley, not the upper midwest. Tax breaks make it more viable for private operators, but tax incentives just distort the market.

 

[Loren49]

The primary obstacle the 3 proposed wind farms in my area (within 70miles) is not the EPA. It is the NIMBY people. When the 300MW wind farm was in the works in my town I was part of the planning board - the EPA required the company to jump through lots of hoops and some of it was probably good. It appears that small group who is motivated and very vocal (often with half-truths and lies) have been able to achieve their goal.

Also I have been asked many times over the years about the payback on my solar/wind home. There are lots of variables such as future fuel and electricity costs. I'm sure that my out of pocket cost per kwh is actually high as I have a stand alone system and batteries are not that efficient. The reason that I have spent less on power is that I don't waste my electricity. If I had to calculate my actual costs I would need to "guess" how long my solar panels will continue to produce because they require no upkeep until they quit. They vary in age from 1 to 25 years of use with the majority about 15 years. The nice thing with solar is that its easy to adjust size with need.

On a system with utility interconnect it will depend on your cost of installation, your location, and what the utility company pays or charges you for electricity. Also as with any venture - will the rules change.

Good luck with your decision and sometimes its feels good to do something just because you feel its the right thing to do.


Loren

 

[Stimw]

I took a class in solar in the low 80's taught by a published instructor and came away with the fact that it is expensive. The only solar application that is cost effective is for heating water either for home use or a heating system.
And just one hail storm will cost you many thousands of dollars. Since there are tax benefits it will cost other people for you to be green.
The mediterranean and Middle East have used Passive Solar water heating for years in the form of black water tanks on their roofs.
I'm not anti-green, I just am not going to spend more for it. I have a Geothermal Heatpump. I have 29 years experience with them and know I am saving money.

 

[Loren49]

Pilot - thanks for a good response.

I was just trying to make a point in my earlier post - thanks for taking it well. I know we were comparing apples and oranges. (which I'm aware just froze in Florida)

Just for information purposes - I have used both wind and solar in Northern NY (50 miles south of the Canadian Border). Germany, which is considerably north of us has a significant amount of solar. I completely agree that solar/wind is limited to only a portion of our demand but feel we aren't close to that yet. My panels produce very well in the winter, when it isn't cloudy, (or dark) because I stand them vertical. (angled in the summer) The only issue is a wind driven sleet and then I have to clear them like you clear a car windshield. Also their hours of production when they do not track with the sun varies considerably at my latitude. Just ballpark guess its a minimum of 6hrs (winter) and a max of 10hr (summer) with reasonable output. (please don't hold me to those numbers - just a guesstimate) My winter demand is less mostly because my freezer on the unheated porch doesn't work too hard.

My 2 cents on elections - much of what truly effects what happens is done at the local, county, and state levels with the local government being the most accessible and responsive. (Everything that has held up or accomplished wind development near here has been local and county decisions)

Loren

 

[eepete]

Pillar: here's the #s:

Cost of panels, inverter, rails: $34,100
Cost of stainless steel threaded rod and hardware: $753
Cost of lumber for inverter shed: $1,000
Cost of concrete: $250
Cost of 100A drop from power company: $300

Total cost of system: $36,403

33% from feds, $10K from NC, after tax credit cost: $14,390

I get 20 cents per kilowatt hour. 15 from NC Greenshares (cap and trade deal) and 5 from the power company (burden cost). Power company also has net metering, cost of electricity here is 10 cents per KWH. That's my worst case rate if NC Greenshares can't sell enough carbon credits.

On-lin calculator for my area (Raleigh, NC) shows $2000 per year at that payback rate. Also I'm assuming that investing the money elsewhere (i.e. cost of lost opportunity) would be around 2% annually, since interest rates are bad.

Risks are: NC Greenshares pay goes down. If I go to net metering, the system is only valued for $1000 per year, looking at break even over life of the system. Interests rates could go up. The "Anti-risks" are cost of electricity goes up, then it pays back sooner.

Note also I've not put a value on my time. Commercial quotes for this system installed ran $60K to $80K. The markup should be around $10K if you go by a $500 per day per person on site estimate, I suspect many here would be delighted to get that on a job.

Yes, this is all heavily dependent on tax breaks and people buying green power to feel good. But all you can do is play by the current rules. Government levels the field, I play. How many people on this forum get a good deal because they can do the labor? Lots.

Panels are made in TN with semiconductors from Japan. Rail system for mounting and all hardware made in US. Inverter is made in Germany. The German government used heavy subsidies over the last decade to build up that countries solar manufacturing and design sector. So they have the jobs building the inverter, we don't. Basically, we can make aluminum and re-melt existing steel. This could all be made in the USA, but we don't have the market for it so there are few players. Don't want to get political here, but it shows yet another complexity when looking at the big picture. What are the real cost and benefits of the tax incentives?

So Pillar there it is. May not be able to be duplicated by all, but much like a good deal on a used tractor if you can get it, go for it.

Pete

 

[charlz]

The mediterranean and Middle East have used Passive Solar water heating for years in the form of black water tanks on their roofs.

From what I have read solar heating is a much more efficient than solar electric. I would love to put a solar heating system in for domestic hot water. However my house is already built and it gets complicated (expensive) fast. To me this is where Government has a role. Pass a law, implement a building code, whatever and require all new home construction to have sufficient piping installed between the hot water heater location and the attic to support solar DHW. This wouldn't add much to the cost of a home and gives every owner of that home the option of installing solar DHW much cheaper than if they had to have that piping installed after the fact. It's a small thing but it could add up over time.

 

[Ken45101]

here's the #s:

Cost of panels, inverter, rails: $34,100
Cost of stainless steel threaded rod and hardware: $753
Cost of lumber for inverter shed: $1,000
Cost of concrete: $250
Cost of 100A drop from power company: $300

Total cost of system: $36,403

33% from feds, $10K from NC, after tax credit cost: $14,390

So the real cost is $36,400, plus your labor.

If I invest that money at 5%, that's $1800/year, which is more than our annual electric bill. You said that a commercially done installation would have cost twice that much, which makes investing the money even more sensible.

I assume you aren't storing the power (e.g. batteries) for non sunny periods.

(Yes, I might have to hunt to find 5% today, but it's been quite easy in the recent past and probably will be in the near future.)

Without government programs manipulating the results, solar isn't practical from an economic standpoint. Just like corn ethanol is only viable with government subsidies twisting the costs.

Ken

 

[keegs]

So the real cost is $36,400, plus your labor.

If I invest that money at 5%, that's $1800/year, which is more than our annual electric bill. You said that a commercially done installation would have cost twice that much, which makes investing the money even more sensible.

I assume you aren't storing the power (e.g. batteries) for non sunny periods.

(Yes, I might have to hunt to find 5% today, but it's been quite easy in the recent past and probably will be in the near future.)

Without government programs manipulating the results, solar isn't practical from an economic standpoint. Just like corn ethanol is only viable with government subsidies twisting the costs.

Ken

I think this argument might be a little overstated Ken. At some point the system should pay for itself. The programs will create a market that overtime will drive down equipment costs. And not having to add capacity keeps everyone's rates lower. I think even with the subsidies though, something like this may be out of reach for many if not most budgets.

Many existing home sites may be ill situated for solar or wind. We have 60'+ red oaks on the south side of the house. They cool it in summer. The rake end faces east and is also shaded by trees.

But there's a leaky exterior door in my TV room that probably needs replacing and I could probably go with a larger wood stove. There's the attic pull down stairs that leak warm air into the attic that I tried to seal last year but failed. I could do with more attic insulation too and even blowing some insulation between the floors might make sense.